BEN KISSEL
Hey, what's up everyone? How you doing? Ben here with Henry. Thank you all so much for giving to our Patreon. Without you we're absolutely nothing. Today's guest, my god, the reason that you love every single thing on Shudder is because of this man. We are speaking with Craig Engler, the general manager at Shudder and just thank god for what you do. Thanks for being here.
CRAIG ENGLER
Thanks for having me. And I gotta give a shout out to Sam Zimmerman and Emily Gotto who also help acquire everything and Nick Lazo, it's a whole team over there.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
So while I can take credit for it, there's a great team and Sam is at the forefront.
BEN KISSEL
Oh yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's the proper power of the CEO is spreading it around. Because honestly you're the only CEO I can imagine having on our show that I don't want to immediately like dress down, being like, 'You are incorrect, sir!' Where it's like it seems at Shudder you guys run a really good ship.
CRAIG ENGLER
Thank you, thank you. It's a great team. I love working there, I love the content and I love the team and the team kind of loves what we do and sharing it with people. So there's a lot of love in Shudder for a horror streaming service.
BEN KISSEL
Well this isn't a Zoom meeting where you're speaking with potential people that do finance, so we don't care.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We have no money.
BEN KISSEL
We want to talk about blood and guts and streaming. So when you're searching for the great horror movie that's gonna stand out on Shudder, there's so many horror options, paranormal, gore, UFO, what are you looking for? What's the thing that stands out that you want to see in a horror film?
CRAIG ENGLER
I'm gonna give you two answers to that question. The first answer is that everybody always loves a legit scary movie. So we are always on the lookout for something that is scary. And it doesn't have to be jumpscare scary but it could be dread scary.
BEN KISSEL
Yes.
CRAIG ENGLER
Scary is always top of the list because watching a horror movie is like getting on a roller coaster, you wanna be scared and then you want to come in at the end and you can walk away and you're fine. Right?
BEN KISSEL
Just like a good mushroom trip, kind of peak and then slowly come down.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. And then sometimes it's good to have eight or nine boobies on the roller coaster as well. And I'll see some penises if you can throw them in there.
BEN KISSEL
Absolutely.
CRAIG ENGLER
Oh yeah, you should go watch Violation.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes!
CRAIG ENGLER
Then the other thing is we're always looking for a movie that has a point of view and is the best version of itself that it can be. And sometimes that's crazy over the top, The Sadness or Mad God, or sometimes it's Watcher, right, which is a modern thriller that is just impeccably made. So there's a variety of stuff in the horror genre. There's comedy, there's paranormal, there's slasher. We are looking for the things that are sort of the best version of themselves that they can be.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You also do such a good job of cultivating the international end of horror.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because I feel like obviously Indonesia has a massive horror scene, South Korea, all these Korean films are also really fantastic. And I love how deep the cuts go on Shudder. How do you find those guys? When you say you look for these things, do you go and watch stuff in a movie theater or you see stuff like at film festivals and you just go that thing.
CRAIG ENGLER
Mostly film festivals or we're getting links from people. It's very rare that we'll see something that is already in a theater somewhere because it's already been distributed.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
Although I cannot remember how we got this one but I think One Cut of the Dead which was made for like $60,000 and made $30 million dollars in Japan-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So good.
CRAIG ENGLER
I think it probably had a release before it got to us. But we're seeing these things and sometimes other people are seeing them and they just don't think that they'll do well, right. And sometimes non English language movies can be a barrier if your primary audience is English language speaking, a lot of times people think that they don't want to read subtitles, even though if they watched it for 5 minutes they'd forget they we're even reading subtitles.
BEN KISSEL
Absolutely.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's just because they're lazy honestly. It's sheer laziness.
BEN KISSEL
Well it's also just the fear of the unknown, right, which is the irony of horror where we're supposed to explore the unknown, in this case that might be subtitles. But it reminds me of the film I Saw The Devil which subtitles but my god, talk about horrifying to your core. What is it about a movie that transcends even the language? Because there's something about horror that I think all of us love. It's so visceral, you see it, they show not tell for the most part when it's done the way that I like it. What is that sort of special sauce that makes a movie jump out from the screen and just get into your freaking bones?
CRAIG ENGLER
Well you know what's interesting is if you look at horror across cultures, horror is universal, right. What scares us is universal and it's very common, right. So one of the things that's really interesting is one of the reasons humans are scared of zombies, right, is because they look like they're full of disease and decay. And when we were running around before we had civilization, if somebody came near you and they looked disease, you had to get away from them, right, otherwise you were gonna get it and die, right.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah dude, 20202 and 2021. Yeah, we know.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yep, yep. So we have all of these innate fears that they cross geography, they cross culture, they cross language. So I think horror kind of quote unquote "travels well", right, around the world because you can see without understanding the language if somebody is scared or not. And you can see if something is scary.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And the imagery. There was one you guys just did, there was a movie you guys just put out, I believe it is an Indonesian film that I saw that was... It's just the imagery itself. That's what I kind of like about dipping into other cultures' horror films because you kind of see what they also... Like what is their version of a ghost?
CRAIG ENGLER
Yes.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
First time I saw Pulse or The Grudge, when you see the original and you're like oh that's a type of ghost I've never seen before, now I'm fucked up. Like thanks, that's a new thing in the bucket for me.
CRAIG ENGLER
Well even The Ring, you wouldn't think some woman with long hair crawling out of TV, if you describe that as someone you wouldn't necessarily think that's scary but then when they show it you're like oh my god, that's the most terrifying thing I've seen.
BEN KISSEL
I mean if you describe it to me on a lonely night after I've had a bottle of Jameson I'll still have sex with that woman and she'll want to go back in the TV. So you gotta flip it and you got to reverse it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It was Warning: Do Not Play.
CRAIG ENGLER
Oh okay, sure.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Warning: Do Not Play was a really good film. Can I ask a little, this is a Chris Farley-like question from the Chris Farley show from Saturday Night Live. What's Phil Tippett like?
CRAIG ENGLER
I have never spoken to him directly.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I have talked on the show, I have been endlessly pontificating about Mad God, right, about how Mad God blew my fucking mind.
CRAIG ENGLER
Mad God is amazing.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I was so excited to have it. My wife can't watch it. My wife can't do it. It's that and The Wolf House are movies that she can't see because she doesn't like the animation, it creeps her out.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But what was it like? Because in my mind with Mad God, that dude was walking around for 30 years with that shit playing in the back of his head.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah, 30 years.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
What is that like? Did you meet him? So you never got to meet him.
CRAIG ENGLER
I did not meet Phil. You know what happened is so Mad God, the team had been aware of it and then I can't remember why we didn't quite close the deal and then I saw something, I didn't know that they'd seen it and I saw something something written about it and it was like Phil Tippett has been working on this for 30 years. And I thought oh my god, we have to have that.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
CRAIG ENGLER
Because whether it's good or bad or somewhere inbetween, people are gonna want to see it. You know what I mean?
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
You just hear that story and you're like I gotta see this movie.
BEN KISSEL
Well it's a man's legacy it sounds like.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Well it's like reading a book too, it felt like it's that thick.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I've watched it three times and you just keep coming back to it, just like there's so much to it.
CRAIG ENGLER
And so we got it and we also put that movie in theaters believe it or not because sometimes we put movies in theaters and it's done incredibly well on the sort of art house theater circuit, probably far better than anyone thought it would be.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
But I never met Phil. But then I watched, there is that ILM documentary on Disney Plus and I watched it and they've got a young Phil Tippett talking and I was like this is amazing! So hopefully, I think I've been on a couple of emails with him but I've never met him in person. I would love to. And Mad God was great. And then we do this thing every year, we call it the Ghoul Log, it's like our version of the yule log where we have a streaming jack-o-lantern that you can put on your TV 24/7 for Halloween.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
And it's funny because people watch it thinking it's a movie and they're like nothing happens and we're like no, it's just background to put on your TV.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
People are so bored.
BEN KISSEL
Oh I'll watch that for hours, I love those things. Take some acid and be like did it change? It's like when I used to watch Sportscenter growing up and try to figure out if it was still the replay, being like I think it's a little different this time. No, it's the same thing.
CRAIG ENGLER
We called them and said you want to do you guys want to do a Ghoul Log for us? And they got the concept right away and they said yeah. And then they just went and made probably the best one that will ever be made. Although I love them all in their own way. And stuff happens in it but they still got this gnarly furnace with this face on it and then this pumpkin that gets carved by these little creatures and stuff.
BEN KISSEL
Awesome.
CRAIG ENGLER
And it's amazing. And they did that super quickly. So not only do we have Mad God but we have Ghoul Log: the Mad God edition.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes!
BEN KISSEL
Man, rolls off the tongue.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I just for some reason figured that Phil Tippett would like only talk by scroll, you know what I mean?
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I thought you'd have to go find him at his house then you find out it's like what's his name, Giger?
CRAIG ENGLER
Oh yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Like if you went to get Giger's house where apparently you're expecting it to be a sex dungeon but he's like do you want a Keurig? And you're like yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
Would you like a scone?
BEN KISSEL
Well you mentioned how the art house theaters, they support a lot of horror. Obviously theaters have been going through a lot of struggles right now with the pandemic and everything like that, it's starting to come back. But it seems to me like horror, that genre has always been so perfect for viewing with others.
CRAIG ENGLER
Oh absolutely.
BEN KISSEL
And I think that horror is one of the genres that is supporting movie theaters and people still want to get out of their house and watch it with people. Do you think there's something about just communal fear and if the more people that are there the less you are personally scared? Paranormal Activity for example.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
BEN KISSEL
That was a fantastic movie to watch with others.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because people freak out.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah.
BEN KISSEL
They were freaking out! I heard Terrifier 2, which I'm going to see this weekend, people are getting sick. What is it about the communal aspect of horror? Because that's why the community is so awesome because everyone's so tight knit because we're all scared shitless together.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah. It's kind of fun to be in it together, right. There's this kind of thesis that horror movies are very cathartic, right. You go through some trauma but then you come out of it at the end and you're living sort of in this fear but then it's all fine and good. So you almost feel like better about oh I lived, I survived, I made it.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
CRAIG ENGLER
And I think it's fun to go through that with other people. I remember we saw, unfortunately we couldn't buy the film, we ended up not being able to buy it for Shudder, but I saw The Night House screening at Sundance and I was sitting next to Sam Zimmerman who's our VP of programming and our curator and Sam has seen every movie ever made, every horror movie, far more than I have. And at one point I was sitting watching the movie with my hands over my face.
BEN KISSEL
Like a kid again, yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah. And then there was this really good scary moment and then Sam next to me screamed. He went, 'Ahhh!' And I was like oh my god, that was the best moment of watching a horror movie at Sundance was sitting next to someone who's also a horror fan who's so scared he's screaming. And Sam will freely admit that he does get scared and he screams. But it's that sort of like oh not only are we in it together but well at least he's more scared than I am.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Absolutely. One day I want to talk with him too because I'm the same way. I am a horror... I watch it all. Everything that comes out, I watch every single horror movie and I'm constantly searching. I am on the look for that dragon, I've been chasing it for so long trying to get scared again. What's the last thing that you saw that really scared the shit out of you?
CRAIG ENGLER
Well The Night House is one and that was because I saw it at Midnight at Sundance, that's the one I remember the most.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, you're like half in the bag and just kind of scared in general.
CRAIG ENGLER
Mostly I was just tired to be honest with you because I come from the East Coast and I go to bed early.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
So I was like oh my god, it's like 2 in the morning for me, I'm terrified and sleepy at the same time.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
Actually so we have this movie, it's a horror comedy, Deadstream.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah! Deadstream was great.
CRAIG ENGLER
Deadstream. But it was legit scary, I was very tense in moments even though it's a comedy and we know it's a comedy, right. When you watch that movie it's that great combo of it's kind of scary and it's funny. It's a little bit like Evil Dead-esque, right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
And I thought that combination was killer and Joseph and Vanessa Winters who wrote, she's the director, he's the star, I think they co-directed as well, they just killed it, they did such a good job. And then they have that segment To Hell and Back in V/H/S/99 which I also love and thought was scary. And what a great premise there, we're literally gonna take the audience to hell.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You guys have been making really good choices.
CRAIG ENGLER
Oh thank you.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
V/H/S/94 was fantastic. Deadstream is really good because again, what I loved about Deadstream was that the one thing about horror movies and all of us that are obsessed with horror movies is that there are tropes, there are systems, there are steps that movies go through, like you can watch it. You're like all right, this is a haunted house but with these elements and you kind of know how it's gonna go, how it plays out. What I love about Deadstream is that it's just walking chest first.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Being like yes, this is an asshole who's asking for it. It's the whole point. And then we're just gonna watch him just get torn to shreds which is exactly what you want.
BEN KISSEL
Absolutely. And of course asshole who's asking for it is one thing I've searched a time or two.
CRAIG ENGLER
I forget what they called it, it was like the wheel of stupidity, right? Where he has to spin it and do something dumb.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
CRAIG ENGLER
And it kind of leapfrogs the oh my god, that person is doing something stupid, I would never do that. But oh this person is supposed to be doing something stupid, right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
CRAIG ENGLER
So it really kind of takes the tropes and subverts them a little bit which I thought was really smart.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah. Well you mentioned horror and comedy and that's one thing that with Last Podcast on the Left, we were one of the first pioneers, that's a fact.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
With true crime.
BEN KISSEL
When it comes to horror and rue crime. And obviously Last Podcast on the Left based on Last House on the Left, we talked about a lot of horror films and things like that. Why is it so difficult to put a thumb on what it is? Because for us, we created true crime horror comedy in a podcast form but like Evil Dead, like Dead Alive, like these films that you gutturally laugh at, even like Leprechaun. It's difficult to pin down what genre it is because comedy and horror, you have an audience member, we all experience that, they're like I'm not laughing, these guys aren't going to be funny. And you crack them because you make them laugh.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah.
BEN KISSEL
I'm not gonna be scared, I'm a tough guy, whatever. And you crack them, you make them scared. What is that marriage between horror and comedy that just makes it work so well together?
CRAIG ENGLER
You know Joe Hill, who's the son of Stephen King and a great horror author in his own right-
BEN KISSEL
Yes of course.
CRAIG ENGLER
He always talks about how comedy and horror, like humor and horror are the flip side of the same coin, right.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
CRAIG ENGLER
So they're very similar emotions, they're very adjacent to one another. And I think that if you can crack it, like Shaun of the Dead, it works wonderfully well.
BEN KISSEL
Yes.
CRAIG ENGLER
On the flip side if you can't crack it, it tends to not work. It's like two things aren't working at once. But I mean it is legitimately hard to do something that is both funny and scary but if you're able to do it, it kind of transcends. It's kind of like where one and one make three.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
CRAIG ENGLER
It's like horror and comedy make a horror comedy but it's better than just horror and comedy together.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because it has to be 50% scary. It has to be scary.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah.
BEN KISSEL
Oh it has to be scary.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And then the comedy has to be funny.
BEN KISSEL
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Which are both extremely difficult.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because what I do think it's interesting though is that now we're seeing with the Halloween series more and more comedians are jumping into the pool to do horror-based content.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Like genuine horror which I find really interesting because I think it's also horror like comedy is very reliant, well the medium when you watch it is very reliant on timing.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah, it really is.
BEN KISSEL
And of course a lot of that happens in the editing room. I wonder if you could maybe explain in post when it comes to these films, I know with the original Halloween they had the showing, no one liked it, and then John Carpenter added the score and they we're like this is pretty scary.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
This is awesome, yeah.
BEN KISSEL
And that's just another element, music in the background. Those things really happen after a film is shot. I mean you don't really know what you got until the very, very end I guess.
CRAIG ENGLER
Now they're sort of saying there's three versions of the film. There's the one you write in the script, the one you shoot, and then the one you create in the edit room, right?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
And I think especially in horror but in all films, sound effects and music are wonderful. I often wonder in my mind would Star Wars be Star Wars if it had a lame score?
BEN KISSEL
Right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I don't know. I don't know.
CRAIG ENGLER
I think maybe it wouldn't have been so big and I think that score really helps so much, it kind of literally announces Star Wars and Darth Vader. And Jaws, would Jaws be Jaws without da-dum. But sound plays a huge role both in music. And also I think I read in Hereditary one of the things they did to kind of keep people off balance is they use different instruments to mimic an instrument but not be the same one. So you always knew it was off. So you think you're hearing a violin, I can't remember the exact, so someone don't get mad at me.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah. No, I was extremely nervous and uncomfortable that entire time. So I believe it.
CRAIG ENGLER
And when I read that I thought oh my god, that's genius. You're mimicking instruments with other instruments and gives us this subtle sense of unease. I mean that whole movie is just a study in making you uneasy, right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So good.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
But once they said that I was like oh, that's perfect. We don't typically get involved too, too much in the post unless we're building a movie from the ground up.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
So all credit in Deadstream goes to Vanessa and Joseph and Melanie who plays Chrissy who was also amazing in that film.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Very good. So during quarantine obviously we were all low level scared as it was, right. It was a shitty time. But it was also very difficult I think for movies to get made, people couldn't figure out how to crack it. But you guys again where you guys stood out ahead of the pack of everybody else is that you did the only scary Zoom movie which was Host.
CRAIG ENGLER
Host, yeah.
BEN KISSEL
Host was so good, dude.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I also liked Unfriended, back in the day I did like Unfriended, it did make me feel scared.
BEN KISSEL
Unfriended is good.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But Host took it to a different level. How did you guys get Host? Did you guys pitch it to somebody else? Did they come in? Did someone come up with... How did it end up there? Because that was the perfect movie for the time. Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
Host was... So we're always on Twitter and Reddit and everywhere else sort of keeping track of what everybody's talking about. And one day I was on Twitter and I saw Rob Savage who directed Host had put this prank video where he pretended to be on Zoom with his friends investigating a noise in the attic and then he climbs up in the attic, he turns the camera for just a second, you see some kind of entity, and it looks like he falls to his death. And he freaked his friends out and it was two minutes and they put it on on Twitter. And we have a channel where we're always talking to each other on chat at Shudder if we see interesting stuff. And I threw it in the chat and said hey, did anyone see this? And then Nick Lazo who works on our development said oh we know the director, Rob Savage. And I said ask them if they have a feature version of that film.
BEN KISSEL
Wow.
CRAIG ENGLER
And they came back to us, they had a six page deck. But literally they sold us on the words Zoom séance, right. As soon as they said Zoom séance you can picture how that movie can play out, especially because we're all trapped on Zoom.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
And they had sort of some twists and some turns in there that were really unexpected. And we said okay. And they wrote, shot, produced that movie and we had it on the service in three months from the time we pressed go.
BEN KISSEL
Holy crap.
CRAIG ENGLER
And first of all, they absolutely killed it. I mean that is a movie for the ages.
BEN KISSEL
It's so good.
CRAIG ENGLER
But I remember I watched the rough cut and I was thinking to myself is this as good as I think it is or just because we're all stuck in our homes Zooming?
BEN KISSEL
Right.
CRAIG ENGLER
So I was chatting with Nick and Sam and Emily and I said is this as good as I think it is? And they wrote back yes. We had almost no comments on it whatsoever and I think they ignored the comments we did have anyway so that was fine.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
And then then we got the movie on and the crazy thing about that movie, I love this story, is we had the movie on the service before we had the trailer because they couldn't get the trailer done because they were still busy making the movie and we had this deadline to hit.
BEN KISSEL
Wow.
CRAIG ENGLER
And then it became a phenomenon. In fact I'm sad for Host because I feel like, we put movies out in theaters, I feel like if we had put Host in theaters it would have been a paranormal activity, right?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
I think it would have gone big but that was the time of the pandemic where theaters were shut down. So it did get a limited theatrical run in the UK but I sort of feel like I really wish we could have put that movie in theaters. But that was all really Rob Savage posting this thing, then we saw them, met them, and then they had this great idea and we said do it. So all credit to them.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Honestly if you did show it theatrically, obviously I'm one of those I believe that all movies should be seen in movie theaters. I think that's the best way to see them. I have a huge ass television I still sit like three feet from so I feel like I'm in a movie theater.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah.
BEN KISSEL
And he eats a lot of popcorn and he burps and he's looking at his cell phone the whole time. Horrible.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Covered. But I love that movie because it's the only movie I've seen that's genuinely scarier on the computer.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yes, yes. If you watch it on a laptop you feel like you're part of it. I love it.
BEN KISSEL
But that kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier with horror finding a way. During the pandemic I think it was a net negative for art, it all sucked.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It was difficult.
BEN KISSEL
It was just very difficult. But for that specific time in our history, for a movie like that to come out right when it did. I mean it filled that void and they found the horror, they found what scares us during that very unique moment.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yep.
BEN KISSEL
And I think that's one of the powers of the genre as a whole.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
BEN KISSEL
No matter what the situation, it finds a way to remind us of what we're truly scared of.
CRAIG ENGLER
What's really interesting is when the pandemic came out we had this movie called Blood Quantum. Blood Quantum is a movie about a virus that turns people into zombies but there's indigenous people on a reservation and they are immune. So there there comes this whole sort of who do we let in and stuff. It was very emblematic of what was going on at the time, right?
BEN KISSEL
Yes.
CRAIG ENGLER
Who you let in your house, who do you not? And that movie took off for us. And even though we had originally planned to release it theatrically and we couldn't because theaters were closed, we put it on Shudder and it became one of the most watched movies in our history. And also the number one request we got the first month of the lockdown was do you have any pandemic movies? They were asking, people wanted to because it's a really interesting... Again it goes back to this catharsis that horror provides to people.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
Like I want to watch a pandemic movie so I can experience this and the trauma but then I can come back and be safe relatively speaking. Yeah.
BEN KISSEL
I think also there's something with the horror audience as opposed to many other, no dissing on people who like rom coms but it's not working out.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
No, man.
BEN KISSEL
He's not a good guy, he's not a doctor, he's a scumbag.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's not gonna happen.
BEN KISSEL
It's never happening. So I think there's something with horror audiences that they confront.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah.
BEN KISSEL
And they look at it and they don't run from it and I feel like that's a really powerful, powerful way to go through life. Although it's hard.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah, 100%. I think that people face their fears on in through movies and it's awesome.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Absolutely. I want to ask, okay, we've had... It was vampires with Twilight, right, vampires was a thing. We got zombies, right, everybody's got zombies, blah blah blah, zombies we've seen a million times, right. What's next? What's the next monster on the horizon?
CRAIG ENGLER
Great question, great question.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
What's next? What's going on?
CRAIG ENGLER
I think we talk a lot about A) needing a really good werewolf movie.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yep.
BEN KISSEL
Yes, please god.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Good one, Ginger Snaps is still of the modern horror films, of modern werewolf movies, it's still one of my favorites.
BEN KISSEL
Fantastic.
CRAIG ENGLER
And we also talk about witches. Witches I think are making a comeback now. Obviously The VVitch was a big hit but I think that sort of, what was that, it was like a made for TV movie where your neighbors were in a witch coven or something, or Race With The Devil, you know type of movie?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes!
CRAIG ENGLER
I think we really need a good witch coven satanist revival.
BEN KISSEL
I agree.
CRAIG ENGLER
We've had a couple of things that were close that didn't quite work out for that. But I really think a great witch movie. And again you kind of have to say post The VVitch witch movie because The VVitch obviously kind of had this moment in time.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. Well you also had Hagazussa.
CRAIG ENGLER
Oh true, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Which is also fucking awesome.
BEN KISSEL
Great name.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Have you seen Hagazussa?
BEN KISSEL
No, I didn't see it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Hagazussa is one of those, I don't know how you feel about this, but it is a great you rip a bong and you just live in Hagazussa. Cause it's all atmosphere.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah, it's very atmospheric. I love the poster too. I love that skull, I really have to get that one framed for my office.
BEN KISSEL
We were discussing a little bit before the show They Live. I could also go for a new version of They Live as Henry has his OBEY slogan over the Shure microphone he's supposed to be advertising.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yup.
BEN KISSEL
Something about corporatism, something about the manipulation of media because that was another thing all of us were forced to ingest during these two years, these past two years or three years I guess when we were quarantined and all that stuff where we were living exclusively online. To be patriotic was to order Uber Eats. That kind of corporatism and that kind of poison that they've been putting into our society, that's another one I would love to see a much smarter person than me write and just kind of get a They Live 2 with The Rock as Rowdy Roddy Piper this time.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah. You know what I'd also like to see is a really good, I don't know if a remake because the movie is so good, but like a modern Prince of Darkness.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
CRAIG ENGLER
And also by the way I discovered something about myself is that I love isolation horror and I think Prince of Darkness counts, right, because they're sort of isolated in the church, right. But I love a good isolation horror and I also love a good Satan swirling around in sort of green goo, ready to be unleashed with messages from the future.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's pretty good.
CRAIG ENGLER
So I would love to see something like Prince of Darkness.
BEN KISSEL
I agree.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I actually am pretty certain that John Carpenter goes to my grocery store, I'm pretty certain I've seen him multiple times or somebody that looks just like him. And I'm gonna grab him one day.
BEN KISSEL
Buddy, just hanging out by the avocados, hang out by the avocados for eight hours a day because you know he's an avocado guy, I can just see him being an avocado guy.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He is.
BEN KISSEL
You'll see.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Look at his sheen. He's got very wet hair.
CRAIG ENGLER
Do you guys know if you watch a Shudder movie and the logo comes on those that (Shudder logo sound), John Carpenter composed that and our little audio bug is a portion of that theme.
BEN KISSEL
Very cool.
CRAIG ENGLER
It is. Go just Shudder John Carpenter YouTube and you'll get the whole track that he did.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's fucking awesome.
BEN KISSEL
Now I just want to start pitching you movies. I had an idea that I sent to Henry, I almost want to pitch it right now.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Pitch your movie. Pitch him a movie, come on. This is the opportunity, we got him right in our targets.
BEN KISSEL
Okay dude, hear me out. Here's the logline. Craig Engler.
CRAIG ENGLER
Yeah.
BEN KISSEL
A Make-A-Wish kid who asked players to throw games and becomes a mafia kingpin. So his final wish is that they throw a game-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You're wasting this opportunity with this.
BEN KISSEL
No, this is a great idea because (coughs) please throw the game for me and then the player has to throw the game, right? And they're like who's this, who's this kid, man? Who's this guy behind all these people throwing these games? Mafia kingpin, it's a dying kid with fucking cancer, bro. It's Jigsaw meets fucking cancer kid.
CRAIG ENGLER
I think it's a great idea but I don't think it counts as horror. Maybe you should call Netflix.
BEN KISSEL
Goddamnit. I can't believe it just got rejected on my own Patreon show.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He'll definitely call Netflix. He just goes 1-800-NETFLIX and he's gonna be like Mr. Netflix?
CRAIG ENGLER
I'd like to pitch a movie.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I do genuinely have a good Pumpkinhead pitch and one day I will pitch at you.
CRAIG ENGLER
Pumpkinhead is awesome.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I wanna do a Pumpkinhead 3 but I'm gonna get through the proper channels to you, sir.
CRAIG ENGLER
Didn't they make three of them?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
No, two.
CRAIG ENGLER
Oh they only made two?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They only made two. But I have an idea but I'm saving that for when I'm in front of you in a room so you can smell my deodorant.
CRAIG ENGLER
All right, save it.
BEN KISSEL
Wow. The rejection still stings to this day.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes, as it should.
BEN KISSEL
Wow.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Thank you so much for talking to us, man.
CRAIG ENGLER
Absolutely, it was totally fun.
BEN KISSEL
Yes.
CRAIG ENGLER
Anytime we could talk about getting high and watching Hagazussa is a good time.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, absolutely.
BEN KISSEL
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We're gonna keep pushing the good word of Shudder to everybody who will hear me. Joe Bob and Last Drive-In is also one of the best decisions that you guys made. And it is fucking fantastic.
CRAIG ENGLER
Awesome, we love Joe Bob and Darcy, Darcy is a rockstar.
BEN KISSEL
Joe Bob is so fun.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They are the best.
BEN KISSEL
And to continue to pitch, if you need us for anything, we'll always sit down and blab about horror films.
CRAIG ENGLER
Awesome.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We'll work for free.
BEN KISSEL
We had a great time doing that previously, so thank you so much Craig Engler!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Dude.
CRAIG ENGLER
Thank you guys, cheers.
BEN KISSEL
Thank you, Craig. All right everyone, there it was, our conversation with Craig Engler. It burns, it burns. I think my mafia kingpin idea is good. It's not a horror but whatever.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
The thing is that if you had just cleared it with me beforehand, it's not horror, that's not a horror film. That's a heist movie.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah, whatever it is! It was rejected.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I have so many other ideas. There's so many other things we could have told him.
BEN KISSEL
Well, you know what? We didn't, did we?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We didn't.
BEN KISSEL
We fucking didn't, did we?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We fucking didn't. And this is why we're here. No, we're doing well.
BEN KISSEL
We're fine. Thank you all so much for listening. That was awesome.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It was great.
BEN KISSEL
Once again, horror is simply the best! I just love it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He knows what he's doing too.
BEN KISSEL
He does.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Again, Shudder, that's what I said at the top of the interview is if you're going to talk to anybody that's a fucking head of a network that you could actually say you're doing a good job, they're the only ones doing it, it's Shudder. And we're getting no money for this.
BEN KISSEL
And they maintained it, they maintained it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
BEN KISSEL
Anyway everyone, thank you all so much for listening. Anything else? I think that's about it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's it. Release them, release the people.
BEN KISSEL
Hail yourselves!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Hail Satan.
BEN KISSEL
Megustalations everybody, take care of yourselves. Have fun.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Talk soon!
BEN KISSEL
How exciting for them.