BEN KISSEL
Hey, what's up everyone? How are you doing? Ben Kissel hanging out with Henry Zebrowski.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah.
BEN KISSEL
Today's guest, we are honored to have him. He is a 74 time winner in a row, it's called a streak, folks, on Jeopardy. He is also the author of a new book, '100 Places To See After You Die'. Ken Jennings is with us. Ken, thank you so much for being on the show.
KEN JENNINGS
Oh it's my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me on.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Dude.
BEN KISSEL
Yes indeed.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Can't believe you're here. Can't believe you're here. You're too smart to be here. This is great. Honestly you'll see immediately, you'll immediately be like why did I do this?
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Why did I take time out of it... Because you're in the middle of a tournament right now, right?
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah, the Jeopardy Masters tournament is over but Jeopardy continues through July and I'm on a book tour now. Many people warned me not to do this show. Ken, you're too smart for this they said. B
BEN KISSEL
Yep.
KEN JENNINGS
But I am a big fan and I'm delighted to be here.
BEN KISSEL
Well awesome. Thank you so much. So my first question is because the rise of the machines, I'm not really a fan of these robots.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He's immediately... I'm sorry, sir.
BEN KISSEL
I gotta talk to you about this goddamn schmuck IBM Watson. So he beat you and he cheated of course cause he's got all the Google. What do you want to do to IBM Watson? Should we take it out into the field, Office Space it, baseball bats, golf clubs, destroy this absolute disgusting devil box? What are your thoughts on Watson? Just let me know. Cut a promo.
KEN JENNINGS
I felt very obsolete back in 2011 when I lost to Watson. I felt like this was the beginning of the machines coming for these information economy jobs, knowing stuff, learning stuff, writing stuff, it was all about to go. And then for a decade it didn't happen and I thought oh, it's just me. I'm the only one who was put out of work. Jeopardy champions are out of work. But now in the ChatGPT area it looks like the machines are back. Watson was the first Terminator where it's just one guy but now there's an army of Terminators coming for us.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. New liquid lady Terminators. It's gonna get very, very intense.
KEN JENNINGS
Exciting.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah, that was the one thing, they could have given Watson like a mustache or something as opposed to you just looking like you're losing to a shitty Tesla. I just... It must have been infuriating, all of the work that you put in and then all of a sudden this goddamn glorified Rubik's cube comes out of nowhere and everyone's talking about it like it has feelings. It didn't know it won.
KEN JENNINGS
It didn't care. It was a big black rectangle on TV. Do you know why? It was a flat screen TV turned on its side. That's all Watson's face was. And then it had a mechanical thumb and that was really its advantage, it could buzz faster than any human. So the robots don't know more than we do yet but they are much better at pressing a Jeopardy button.
BEN KISSEL
Oh okay. Makes me feel better.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Would you say that was like the key? Because how do you prepare for that? Because I kind of want to know, is that an extension for how you prepared to be a Jeopardy contestant? Did you prep to be-
BEN KISSEL
Yeah, did you use thumbs? Do you use thumb training?
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And then how does that translate to then fighting the same... Like you go against meat people which is one thing but then you have to go against the flat screen. Like how does it change your preparation?
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah, I do a lot of thumb yoga.
BEN KISSEL
Good.
KEN JENNINGS
You know, watching the show is the best prep because you really do want to get into the rhythm of okay, here's how fast the host reads the clues and here's when I buzz. Because the buzzer is set up such that if you buzz early, you actually lock yourself out for a minute. So when you see people on Jeopardy flailing away, those are not people who buzz too late, they buzzed too early and locked themselves out. So a lot of the prep is just watching the show and getting into that rhythm. And of course we're in the Moneyball era of Jeopardy where players will just build simulators at home and spend hours drilling themselves on vice presidents and state birds and all the rest. There is a lot of Jeopardy training that happens now, it's like a Rocky montage in a bunch of nerds' basements.
BEN KISSEL
I love that.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. But when you're facing a computer, at that point I know it was king of like it was a fun thing, it was kind of like an exercise on Jeopardy. But when you were... Like do you feel genuine resentment that you go against this machine? Like would you know, what's it like you're a jobber in the WWE where you have to go lose to The Rock? Or were you like no, I'm gonna go beat this machine?
KEN JENNINGS
I thought we had a chance. I thought we had a real chance.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
And there were warm up games where Brad and I, the two human players, we actually beat the robot. But in the actual game, it got a good spread of categories. The things that humans would have been good at, kind of high concept problem solving and very short clues where the computer takes a minute to chug along and if the clue is short, maybe the human can get in there first. There just weren't enough of those. And so it was lights out for the human race. I'm sorry I let everybody down. 7 billion in the world, I apologize.
BEN KISSEL
No, you didn't.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It just was the first one, it was just the first true loss. That's fine.
BEN KISSEL
You didn't let us down, Ken. The fix was in, we all saw what happened in clear plain sight. Obviously Trebek had it out for you. So when it comes to you now hosting. So you're the star, 74 straight wins, what a ride. You made Jeopardy cool. Jeopardy's been around for a long time and always has ebbs and flows. It always been cool but-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Hey, I will give some push back on just that. Alex Trebek did make it cool.
BEN KISSEL
No, he was cool.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You're continuing it.
BEN KISSEL
But the run that Ken had. I mean you remember '04? I remember when all of a sudden everyone's like oh Jeopardy, this guy's on a run. People started watching 30 wins in, 40 wins in. You get all the way up to 74 wins. That must have been an absolute shock. I don't know you personally but a lot of times people who are intellectual can also be introvert. And then all of a sudden you are literally on the cover of magazines as the world's smartest man. How do you make a mistake after that? Can you like fuck up your Starbucks order without everyone being like I guess it's all a show, turns out it's a fraud?
KEN JENNINGS
Every single time I walk up to a door and I pull instead of push-
BEN KISSEL
Yes.
KEN JENNINGS
I look around like is anybody observing? Is anybody seeing what just happened to me?
BEN KISSEL
It's a lot of pressure to be the smartest man in America!
KEN JENNINGS
People often do come up to me with trivia questions they want to stunt me with. And what I discovered is the play there is to try to get it wrong because it's easier for me, it's more satisfying for them. Really everybody wins. So I'm fine being a punching bag for all these young gunslingers.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, that's what you gotta do because they're all training up on you. But now you're in charge.
BEN KISSEL
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Do you feel that now that you're hosting Jeopardy, what kind of pressure is that like on yourself?
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Like do you feel like you could go back and win now? Like do the same?
KEN JENNINGS
No, I'm way too old. Like I was still in my 20s when I was first on the show.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
Which meant I had the young plastic sexy brain of a 29 year old.
BEN KISSEL
True.
KEN JENNINGS
And now I forget things and I remember names slower and it's all starting to go, you guys.
BEN KISSEL
Is that right? So that's interesting. It's actually like an athletic venture. There's a certain peak time frame for a Jeopardy contestant.
KEN JENNINGS
I mean we all start to forget things but maybe I just noticed it sooner. Yeah, like you say, the way a running back notices his knees and his hips aren't what they were-
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
Before a normal person like you or I would, you know. Because that's their meal ticket. And so I'm the same way. The last time I played Jeopardy on the GOAT Tournament, I got lucky and I beat James Holzhauer.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
But I'm like Danny Glover in Lethal Weapon, you know? I'm getting way too old for this. I'm very happy to be hosting and retired now.
BEN KISSEL
That's awesome. And then with your insight in playing, have you ever seen a contestant and you're just like buddy, how did you get on the show?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, who did you have sex with that wasn't me that got you this far?
BEN KISSEL
Because literally it would be like Michael Jordan doing commentary just eviscerating everyone who isn't as great as he is. That must be an interesting experience to see the newbies coming in there and sweating it out.
KEN JENNINGS
I have so much sympathy for them because what they're putting themselves through, playing Jeopardy is a very intense experience.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
And having seen it on your couch for years is not really any kind of preparation. It's very intense and surreal to suddenly be there. And I remember that kind of panic and I do everything I can to settle them down. And sometimes they have a good game and sometimes they don't. But I know what they're going through. It's a lot harder than it seems on your couch, I'll tell you that.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Especially because the camera, the camera's right on you. And then the effect I think that a lot of people have who've not been on camera a lot, then you see yourself on camera afterwards. I feel like there's like a doubling up effect. If you make it to the second night and you watch yourself perform on television the night before-
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You know that you're just like oh wow, I have a tell, I'm greasy, what's wrong? You're just like thinking about it, you know.
BEN KISSEL
There's a zit growing as you're staring at yourself. That's a great point. Did you watch your performances with a nice champagne and a cigar? Or were you just scared shitless?
KEN JENNINGS
I mean luckily in most cases your shows are all gonna be taped months before they air. We do five in a day and then they air two or three months later.
BEN KISSEL
Oh okay.
KEN JENNINGS
So in most cases, by the time somebody is able to watch their shows, they know okay, I lost two nights after this, this happened back in June. In my case I was on long enough that yeah, my shows started to air on TV and I'm still playing. So contestants would show up to Jeopardy and be like oh no, it's this guy still. Well how can it still be this guy? Nobody was happy to see me.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
No, that's the best fucking thing. They're like oh no, there's a fucking killer in here already.
BEN KISSEL
I love it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's a lot. I'd love to talk to you about you have your podcast, Omnibus.
BEN KISSEL
Yes.
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You're also working. I do want to bring up like because we are purveyors of dark history and really into dark history. What do you feel like as a take... Because you kind of go through dark, obscure history. For you, what's like a takeaway that you have about learning about history that you would apply to kind of now?
KEN JENNINGS
I wonder if... I feel like the mistake we always make thinking about now is that we're different, you know, there's something special and unique about our generation and our time that is nothing like anybody else ever went through, that we're in modernity, we are special little snowflakes. And I think that's the illusion. I think the more you read about the weird little back alleys of history, you find out oh no, people were worried about something like exactly like my neurosis 500 years ago or 2000 years ago. The human experience is pretty universal. And maybe that's reassuring because we got this far, you know. There were a ton of existential threats and we're the ones who made it and maybe that'll happen again. Maybe our kids are gonna be okay because they'll figure it out as well.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I realized that when we covered the black plague, we talked about at the time everywhere you go, you realize the modern brain has been like this, like we've been modern people for a really long time in human history. And so a lot of times it's what they were concerned about, like how in the black plague they were still talking about like one of the worst fates that can happen to you is the bards get a hold of your story and they make fun of you for generations. And that was considered a curse.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Which is like it's still kind of real, it's still like the power of what SNL does, what certain things do where just making fun of somebody can sometimes destroy everything you know about them.
KEN JENNINGS
I mean to this day on Jeopardy, people will be like I just don't want to go viral. Like that'll be their one dream.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
I don't care if I win or not, please do not let me go viral. And that makes sense.
BEN KISSEL
But what causes something to go viral, is it always a mistake? Can't something positive go viral, not just someone who randomly queefed? It's always... Negativity feeds the internet.
KEN JENNINGS
Sometimes-
BEN KISSEL
What was... Yes, go on.
KEN JENNINGS
Sometimes on Jeopardy, something good or funny will happen and that's what people like. We kind of have a gentle property.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
And so often it is something surprisingly good. Often it'll be somebody doing something dumb, don't get me wrong. But on Jeopardy, you don't expect something funny or dramatic to happen. So good stuff goes viral too which is nice.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah, that is nice.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Mr. Jennings, you're not gonna make Jeopardy more extreme, right? You're gonna do things where you're gonna have like pranks and like things to like shoot out at people-
BEN KISSEL
Dude!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Or like the platforms falling out.
BEN KISSEL
Double Dare meets Jeopardy. We need slime.
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah, we're gonna go back to Fear Factor.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh god.
KEN JENNINGS
If you find the daily double, you're gonna have to eat like donkey rectums. And sadly Joe Rogan is gonna be there. It's not gonna be a good scene.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah, that is... Remember that? Everyone was just eating cow balls at like 8 PM on Saturday and people were like this is good old fashioned Christian values.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He's almost a billionaire.
KEN JENNINGS
That's crazy. He doesn't need Jeopardy.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He doesn't need Jeopardy.
BEN KISSEL
No, he doesn't.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You should bring in, maybe there's also a possibility to bring in America's dumbest people. That sort of show.
BEN KISSEL
Well they already do celebrity Jeopardy, dumbest celebrity you've ever met.
KEN JENNINGS
Hey, hey, hey.
BEN KISSEL
No, that's fine.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's better now. It's better now than the Will Ferrell years.
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah, no. Celebrity Jeopardy is tough because you're trying to find famous people who are willing to do a show with no upside at all. Like if they do fine, nobody's gonna be like hey, Patton Oswalt is pretty smart. But if they get one thing wrong, it's like well this guy got Golden Girls confused with Dreamgirls. Like what a dolt.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Idiot! Guess he's an idiot! Yeah, for the rest of your life, yeah. It's horrible.
BEN KISSEL
So yes, let's talk about '100 Places To See After You Die'. What was the motivation for writing this book? And as Henry alluded to-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's a great concept. I love this concept.
BEN KISSEL
Yes, so fun. It seems like it's an extension obviously of your intelligence and understanding of history. What was it that you wanted to share with us, the readers, '100 Places To See After You Die'?
KEN JENNINGS
I liked the idea of a travel guide to the afterlife because I've always been super interested, even as a kid I loved mythology. And growing up when I did as a Gen Xer, you guys probably remember this time when it seemed like the Bermuda Triangle and UFOs and who built the pyramids were just gonna be the most important things in our life. Do you remember that era?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's literally how we got to this point with Last Podcast on the Left.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
I assumed so, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. It was a seed planted into us elder millennials.
KEN JENNINGS
It was all Time-Life books making us think about these mysteries. And to me the afterlife was always one of these great mysteries. Like it's just maddening that billions of people have died-
BEN KISSEL
Right.
KEN JENNINGS
And they either know or don't what awaits us and we're here like chumps just wondering and worrying for 80 years. And so I love this idea, you know, ghosts, heaven, hell, I love the whole thing.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
And this book is just kind of about the story of humankind trying to get its mind around what might await us in the undiscovered country.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
Whether it's all the way from Ancient Egypt to Dante's Inferno, up to TV shows like The Good Place, we're still worried about it today.
BEN KISSEL
Does that stem for you from an understanding of so much again, obviously high intelligence, you understand humanity, you have the ability to speak and be charming, usually these things don't go hand in hand. Is it because this is actually something that is difficult to grasp? This actually still expands the brain, this idea of the second life.
KEN JENNINGS
Well it's a combination of two things. One, it's the thing we're probably most worried about, the most universal concern is death, life and death, right? It faces us all. And then the second thing is yeah, it's a mystery. Like what is it? Like surely this can't be everything, right? If you look at poll numbers over the years, the number of Americans who are religiously observant goes down every year, fewer people going to church or synagogue or mosque, fewer people reading their holy books, fewer people praying. But the number of people who believe in the afterlife goes up every year.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
KEN JENNINGS
We're so resistant to this idea that I won't see my loved ones again, the thing that makes me me might just end. I mean maybe that's the real answer but it doesn't seem like the most beautiful answer, right.
BEN KISSEL
Absolutely.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I wonder if in America a lot, especially recently it feels that a lot of people got hopeful well maybe it'll be better then. You know what I mean? I'm gonna go through all of this horseshit now but don't worry, there's gonna be some place. All of this will be taken care of one day.
KEN JENNINGS
It's so funny to look at century or millennia of human conceptions of heaven because it starts, we have records from like Ancient Babylon where they can't really imagine a better life. Like they write about heaven and it's like the crop blight will be slightly less.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
Or the rainy season will have less sleet and more pleasant drizzle. They have very achievable goals in heaven. And it's only later as we move from hunter gatherers to a more prosperous people that people start to imagine hey, what if there's amazing banquets? What if we all get gold and jewels? What if there's harems of attractive young mates? That's when the imaginations start to ramp up.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's so interesting.
KEN JENNINGS
we can see that it is wish fulfillment, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Why is that? Why do you think the connection to like... Because I know everything changed once we stopped being nomadic. But what was that jump? Like why go from... Is it because it's the only time you can really imagine the concept of having more than you need?
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah, I guess until there's cities and kings and an actual noble class where you can be like wow, he's got kind of a nice palace. Oh, he wears a fancy hat made of a metal I've never seen. Like until that point, you can't even imagine what a beautiful heaven would be. That's why all the old underworlds are just kind of like dark shadowy places, kind of like now but a little less vivid.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
KEN JENNINGS
It takes a while for the human race to develop the idea of reward and punishment.
BEN KISSEL
Does that disprove or prove the idea of an afterlife more, the fact that it just sort of changes as people change? I guess that it would, right? Because it's all an illusion anyway, even if it's real.
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah, it definitely shows that we know nothing, that it's a mystery. And as we move away from religious fundamentalism, obviously all the good recent after lives are pitched by TV show runners instead of cult leaders.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
KEN JENNINGS
It's a different kind of cult.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
So the afterlives on movies and TV shows are very inventive now and delightful. I remember watching The Leftovers and on that show the afterlife was kind of like a video game.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
And I thought this never would have occurred to Dante or Virgil. Like we have all these cool options today of what we imagine the other world could be. But of course as you say, we're just making it up, we're whistling in the dark.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Well I can see us heading towards a WALL-E style world where if we can make our meat live to 150-175 but people don't got that money to live that life anymore, I can end up seeing extended living afterlives where we are put in stasis where essentially we are like they do in anesthesia or whatever, they bring you down to zero and then you're in a helmet for forever. Like maybe that's kind of what the Bardo will eventually be.
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah, Philip K. Dick thought so, he thought the Tibetan Bardo was going to be reached in cold freeze chambers.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes! Yeah!
KEN JENNINGS
But the ones that could actually happen I think are like what if our brain comes uploadable?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
KEN JENNINGS
You're making fun of Watson and ChatGPT but there could be a human afterlife in a server somewhere, you know? If at the moment of our death we can-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
The poetic justice.
KEN JENNINGS
We can actually choose our heaven.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Man, you downloading your brain into a computer-
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Coming back to kick the shit out of kids in Jeopardy in 2100.
BEN KISSEL
The Ken Jennings 1000. I love it.
KEN JENNINGS
That would be the dream, yeah.
BEN KISSEL
And we're gonna give you a huge wad, buddy. We're not gonna let that just be a normal screen, we're gonna show the people how smart you are from below the waist down.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Huge dick.
KEN JENNINGS
I wanna be like a hologram, I wanna be like hologram Tupac playing Jeopardy.
BEN KISSEL
Oh absolutely.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That would be awesome.
BEN KISSEL
Well when I think of Ken Jennings, I often think of Tupac. And so when it comes to... So we've discussed heaven, what about this idea of fucking eternal doom? What is that?
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah.
BEN KISSEL
Like when you were doing research on that, because obviously Henry and I and Marcus, our tri-host, we love the dark and the macabre and stuff.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
BEN KISSEL
And it's fascinating playing in the world of... You know even Adam Sandler's Little Nicky, it's like fun. What is like the darkest possible afterlife that you've explored that people have sort of fantasized about?
KEN JENNINGS
I feel like all these hells, they probably came about as a means of control, right. If you're a religious thinker or leader, you really want to impress people with how awful the punishments are gonna be and how terrible. And this is what all these descriptions of hell are, you're gonna have molten metal poured on you for this many trillion years and then you're gonna have to drink your own pus and snot for another trillion years. And it's very culturally universal, like whether you're Chinese or Inuit or Babylonian, whatever, like the punishments are all the same.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
And it's funny because by the time you get to Dante and Hieronymus Bosch, these paintings and poems, clearly they're more interested in hell than in heaven.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
To them that's the vivid, exciting stuff and all their fans want to read, it's like a fantasy novel for the Italian Renaissance. Dante's Inferno came out with maps and illustrations and in a time before Game of Thrones, you would imagine yourself exploring this crazy nine level fantasy world. Even though we're supposed to be scared of hell, we just can't help but be fascinated with it.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
In that dissection of hell, do you think that they were meant to be taken literally or is it allegorical? Like was it supposed to be that? Was that map created so that you'd think that oh you actually do go to these places? Or like of the time period, how did people respond to that work? Or is it just entertaining?
KEN JENNINGS
I think a lot of them were still fundamentalists and they were like yeah, I guess if I'm bad I'm gonna be here on the seventh circle with the gluttons or whatever.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's one of those things I've always wondered. We talk about the show about ancient history and we always wonder like what do they actually believe and what were stories?
KEN JENNINGS
Right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And what societies thought was like legit and what did they think was like oh well this is just supposed to describe things in a general sense?
BEN KISSEL
Yeah. As you were saying Ken, for control, for political reasons. And then did they actually have those thoughts?
KEN JENNINGS
Oh I know what I was gonna say. If you look at the actual biblical text, it's all very vague on heaven and hell. You know that there is a lake of fire but it does seem like it might be a vision or an allegory. It's only later where you have these very literal pastors who are really trying to put the fear of god into kids.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
KEN JENNINGS
Where they say oh yeah, you don't want those coals burning you for thousands of years, right? So you better straighten up. And that's not limited to Christianity, lots of traditions have those very visceral threats.
BEN KISSEL
So what would you say your perfect afterlife would be? Because everyone's heaven or hell would be different. I think some people's heaven would probably just be left alone. I would go crazy and be like no one's laughing at my jokes, I feel very... But then so I want like a crowd of people and we're having a great time or we're getting hammered. Someone might be absolutely weeping in the corner at that idea of heaven. What is your idea? What would be your Ken Jennings uploaded into a computer, so you're still with us destroying the robots from within, but your spectral realm, your spirit world, where is it?
KEN JENNINGS
There's 100 different afterlives in the book. And honestly the one that has always appealed to me the most is the one in Field of Dreams, just kind of a soothing afternoon of old timey baseball in a cornfield.
BEN KISSEL
That'd be great.
KEN JENNINGS
That seems like a very good vibe. But if I could pick anything like including an afterlife of my own invention, I think what I would want, and this is I guess pretty on brand for Jeopardy, is I would want answers. Like I would want the version of the afterlife where you can say hey god, what really happened to the dinosaurs? Was it a comet or what? And what happened to... Like who was Jack the Ripper? What was the deal with that?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
Like how did the pyramids get built? You finally get the answers to all your questions. Like god is a librarian, I think I would enjoy that.
BEN KISSEL
I do love that idea. But then would that become boring?
KEN JENNINGS
No more mystery.
BEN KISSEL
No more mystery. But I suppose there's always mystery.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But what is satisfaction then, Ken? What is satisfaction? What happens after?
KEN JENNINGS
Right, this is the hard part of describing heaven is there's no narrative arc. They can just say well it's so good you can't imagine it and it's that forever. And I think there are a lot of modern afterlives where they're like well forever, that seems kind of scary actually. There are whole TV shows and Talking Heads songs about how if heaven did last forever, that might actually be kind of mind blowingly terrible.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I did a show called Your Pretty Face Is Going to Hell. And the pilot of it featured heaven was like a place where it was nothing but like babes and pizza trees, right.
BEN KISSEL
Mmm, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So people eat the pizza trees. It was written by David Willis who did Aqua Teen Hunger Force. And he literally was like, they were like I'm sick of pizza. Like that was like the central joke is that at the end of it, you're like well you have as much pizza as you want! And you're like I am sick of pizza.
KEN JENNINGS
I think that was the great innovation of the TV show The Good Place. Like hell is not hot irons being placed on your skin, it's just the endless banality of this life. Too many Pirates of the Caribbean movies.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
KEN JENNINGS
Too many frozen yogurt places. Too much Axe body spray. You know that. It's not just that hell is torture, hell is other people, it's like hell is the little annoyances of this life.
BEN KISSEL
Well Ken, that brings me to a great question. Why Axe body spray is so cold? I put it on because I have my little brother and he's an Axe body spray guy, special needs kind of. And so I was wearing it and it's fucking cold when it comes out of there. Why?
KEN JENNINGS
Well I think you may misunderstand what a Jeopardy host does. I don't explain how body sprays work to random people, that's not part of the job description. I would assume-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I tried to explain to him, Mr. Jennings, that you're just not an info booth.
BEN KISSEL
He is an info booth!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Like we can't just come to you... No, we can't just come and just ask him random things that we've been wondering.
BEN KISSEL
Why is Ax body spray so cold? There's no answer?
KEN JENNINGS
Okay. No, I think it has some highly volatile stuff in it like alcohols, something that evaporates quickly. So when you put something on you that evaporates quickly, temperature is lowered by the chemical process, like heat is used up. And you feel cold.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah, pretty exciting answer, Ken.
KEN JENNINGS
Hey, I'm sorry. It's not like I'm the one who asked it. I don't wanna throw blame here but...
BEN KISSEL
Anyway, so honestly can we talk about Alex Trebek for a second?
KEN JENNINGS
Yes.
BEN KISSEL
Icon.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He seemed like... Is he exactly as he appeared?
KEN JENNINGS
He very much was. I mean he was more fun and it's hard to imagine someone less fun than he appeared on Jeopardy. But during commercials he would tell jokes, go into the crowd, he loved to warm up the crowd himself and do little impressions.
BEN KISSEL
That's awesome.
KEN JENNINGS
And he was a very light funny guy but he had to keep the show moving because that's the job description. The things you think you know about him, that he's smart, that he actually knew all those answers and wanted you to know that he knew them and was very well read and kind of a gentleman of the old school, all 100% true.
BEN KISSEL
That's great.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
What did you discover when you got behind the podium? That you were like oh shit, this is actually completely a different, I did not know. Like was there something that you were like, did you get newfound respect for Mr. Trebek when now you're the captain of the ship?
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
He made it look so easy for 30 odd years that I think we thought it was, yeah, easy to host Jeopardy. We'll just put in guest hosts, Aaron Rodgers can probably do this. And what I found out was that it's extremely hard. The game moves so fast, the host is juggling three or four things at once, trying to be a referee and a play by play guy and a stadium announcer.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
KEN JENNINGS
And the narrator. You're doing all these things at once. Final Jeopardy is particularly hard because there's so much math involved. You have a little card full of numbers of permutations of what if he gets it wrong but she gets it right and so forth. And you're trying to create drama out of basically what looks like a sudoku.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I can't do it.
KEN JENNINGS
And it's still the hardest moment of the show for me.
BEN KISSEL
Did he give you any advice? Obviously I think that he knew that you were gonna be potentially filling the unbelievable void that he left. Did he give you any insight into hosting or anything like that?
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah, I actually ended up talking to him what turned out to be the night before the day he passed away.
BEN KISSEL
Oh wow.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Wow.
KEN JENNINGS
About guest hosting for him. And we didn't know, we thought oh he's gonna get better, he's gonna bounce back, he'll be hosting again. I was just gonna fill in. And we talked about the game and he gave me the impression he always did over the years which was that he did not want to be the center of attention on Jeopardy. He was never announced as the star of Jeopardy.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
He was always the host of Jeopardy.
BEN KISSEL
Right.
KEN JENNINGS
Because he thought the game itself and the contestants should be the star. And it's just such a...
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
Can you imagine anybody else in Hollywood saying hey, I'm on one of the biggest shows on TV but it shouldn't be all about me? It's just that kind of Canadian working class grit would be so foreign to show business.
BEN KISSEL
And it's the respect of the game itself, right? I mean that's what's so cool about Jeopardy. And again, he led the way, he was the head coach. But that respect for the game-
KEN JENNINGS
And he was absolutely right, yeah.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
That's the way to host it. I do the same thing, like this should not be about me, this should be about these three people and the clues and that's what people want.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You're genuinely good at it, man. I'm gonna say this.
BEN KISSEL
Oh yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I never get to do stuff like say directly to people. Like I love Jeopardy and you're doing great, it's really, really great.
KEN JENNINGS
I appreciate that. It's a very hard gig but I'm slowly figuring it out.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah. Have you been overwhelmed, when obviously you've been in the world now for 19 some years, by the fandom and the support that Jeopardy enthusiasts have? Because we do a lot of the Comic-Cons, we were just a WonderCon and it's really fascinating. And I love people that love stuff. What's the fandom like for Jeopardy?
KEN JENNINGS
The funny thing is Jeopardy was a very early parasocial relationship for people, before we even had podcasts or knew what that word meant. Because people watch Jeopardy every night, they kind of felt like Alex was in their home. It's really part of the ritual of people's day in a way that no other show is anymore. Like Carson's gone, Cronkite's gone but people still remember watching Jeopardy with grandma.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
Or watching it with their friends in the dorms. It's kind of a ritual for people. And it really is nice because they see you and they feel like they know you. And the most common thing I hear is Ken, my 90 year old grandma just loves you. Can you call my grandma? Can you take a picture for my grandma? I feel like I have taken pictures for all of America's grandmas at this point. I'm doing my part.
BEN KISSEL
Yep. And that's the next big scandal.
KEN JENNINGS
If you know what I mean.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Grandma lover, Ken Jennings.
BEN KISSEL
Ken Jennings!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But someone's got to. Someone really has to.
BEN KISSEL
Someone's got to.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
This has been such a privilege for us to take your time, sir.
BEN KISSEL
Yes, it had.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I am glad. All your current like outside of Jeopardy focuses are way in our alley of interest It's great. It's all like very interesting. Omnibus is a really good sleeper podcast and you feel like what information you get in there is like really very interesting. I love the Tartarian Empire, I love that whole concept, it's really, really cool.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Keep at it, man. I can't wait to see what you do next.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah, absolutely.
KEN JENNINGS
Thank you so much. I'm having a great time, Jeopardy is a great side gig while I do the podcast and the books and whatnot.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
And I feel very lucky it came into my life. Thank you for having me on.
BEN KISSEL
Well you are just, I mean honestly it's been so great to talk with you, you're so funny and wonderful. And again, congratulations on all your success. That's almost impossible, people don't really understand how difficult it is to go from contestant to host because there's a lot of people that want that job that are behind the scenes clamoring for it and for you to be able to navigate the political sphere of all of that as well. I'm sure that's a whole other conversation we'll have to have over beers because I can just imagine.
KEN JENNINGS
Yeah. For years I was convinced I would never even get an audition because you would want a broadcaster to do that job. So I just have to pinch myself at how lucky I am. It was always my favorite show as a kid and now I get to do it all the time. It's a real privilege.
BEN KISSEL
That's awesome.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
What you gotta do now is you and Aaron Rodgers need to have some kind of other competition with each other where you do the combine.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
KEN JENNINGS
Well let me put it this way, he is a much better Jeopardy host than I would be Jets quarterback and it's not even close.
BEN KISSEL
Well was he an asshole? I'm a Packers fan. But was Aaron an asshole?
KEN JENNINGS
I wasn't there when he was hosting but I thought he was one of my... My wife said that he was her favorite guest host.
BEN KISSEL
Okay.
KEN JENNINGS
And when I drilled down a little, what it turns out is that means he's very handsome. I think that's mostly what she was getting at there.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah, sure.
BEN KISSEL
Something about him, something about him. Ken Jennings, everybody. Thank you so much for being on the show, Ken. And everyone check out the book '100 Places To See After You Die', listen to the podcast Omnibus, and of course watch Ken host Jeopardy. Thank you so much, Ken. You were wonderful.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Dude.
KEN JENNINGS
That was so much fun, thank you.
BEN KISSEL
Thank you.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Thank you so much, man.
BEN KISSEL
All right, there it was, our conversation with Ken Jennings. We made him dumber!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We're gonna hang out with him.
BEN KISSEL
We are going to hang out with him. I can't wait because-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We're gonna hang out with him, we're gonna get him. You know how we get him? That's what he was saying, he loves grandmas, we get them all out there, we all hang out, we have a nice brunch. We go out there, we have a couple of mimosas.
BEN KISSEL
Sure.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We go to an afternoon disco. We're all asleep by 8.
BEN KISSEL
Yep. Grandma's mating call. Also Henry, rubber band, get some tension for the thumb. Because I think out of all of us, don't tell Marcus, but I actually think you might have what it takes. Marcus is gonna crack, I think his thumb would break. And then me, I could maybe get one question right. You got a chance.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I'm pretty good. I can be good. I have a lot of arcane trivial bits of information in my mind.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But I think Jeopardy has gotten harder since I was a kid. I think it's a harder game now.
BEN KISSEL
Well you also do a good job, you hold onto song lyrics, you have a good retention in the mind.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
BEN KISSEL
I would be your number one fan out there. I'd be there for you, buddy.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They'll be like finally, oh man.
BEN KISSEL
Celebrity Jeopardy.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Polish Jeopardy champion.
BEN KISSEL
I think honestly if it's celebrity Jeopardy, you, Brendan Schaub.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yep. I could beat Brendan Schaub.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I could beat Brendan Schaub, I could beat...
BEN KISSEL
A whole series of other people.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Me, a comedian brand. Honestly it'd be pretty sweet.
BEN KISSEL
Yeah! You got it. All right everyone, thank you so much for listening. Check out again Ken Jennings' book '100 Places To See After You Die'.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I can't wait. Honestly when I found out that he had a dark history podcast, I was all about it. It's pretty fucking great.
BEN KISSEL
I wanna go to the afterlife right now. Okay everyone, hail yourselves.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He doesn't want to die. Thank you for your money also.
BEN KISSEL
I want to go to the afterlife, I wanna live forever.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, I wanna go to... Yeah, I'd love to go to the afterlife as long as I can come back.
BEN KISSEL
Can you imagine if we did know, like the mass suicide that would happen if people did know there was an afterlife?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah, sure, sure, sure. But that's why I'm always saying it's like if the pope thinks that Kevin's so great, why is he still alive?
BEN KISSEL
Right. Oh he's dying, by the way. Did you see?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh I know, he's sick. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
BEN KISSEL
We'll talk about it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Another one down!
BEN KISSEL
All right, hail yourselves. Bye!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Bye!