HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Honestly I think the reason why I am so hungover is because it has been difficult to get food.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Are you on the food plan?
DAVE FOLEY
The food plan here? No, I wasn't. I'm not. I don't think. I might be. Who knows? I'm not good at knowing things.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
I'm not good at details about my own life.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Do people just hand you food?
ED LARSON
Well this show should be great.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Welcome to the Last Podcast on the Left, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us today.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We can't hear your applause. Your applause doesn't matter, we can't hear it.
MARCUS PARKS
My name is Marcus Parks, I'm here with Henry Zebrowski.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. Hi, hello. Welcome to a very special edition of Last Podcast on the Left sent directly into your headphones as you sit in the chair here in the Steer Lounge.
MARCUS PARKS
And Ed Larson.
ED LARSON
Hello!
MARCUS PARKS
And with us today is a very special guest, our man Dave Foley-
DAVE FOLEY
That would be me. Hi.
MARCUS PARKS
Host of the podcast REALLY?! and of course alum of The Kids in the Hall. Everyone give Dave a hand.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You're very good.
ED LARSON
It's an honor, buddy. It is an honor.
MARCUS PARKS
Absolute honor for all three of us.
DAVE FOLEY
Thank you. I'm assuming it's a pleasure for me to be here.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
So far. So far the evidence is piling up that it's a pleasure to be here.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Things are fine so far.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. And just so you guys know, a lot of people are super curious about Dave's illustrious comedy career and all the incredible things that he's done in acting and comedy. And we're not gonna talk about a single one of those things. We're not gonna broach his history.
DAVE FOLEY
No.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We're not gonna talk about the people he knows, the incredible show business connections he has.
DAVE FOLEY
I'm just here to talk about my porcelain figurine collection.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Really?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. They're my friends, they're my little friends.
ED LARSON
You kind of look like a Hummel.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, I'm definitely looking more and more like porcelain as I get older. Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
So Dave, your podcast of course is all about aliens, that's why we're here at Contact in the Desert. And it's a guest-based podcast, you have a lot of guests on. So what is your favorite type of guest to have? Like military, civilian, academic?
DAVE FOLEY
It's weird. I mean I guess some of the most moving ones have been like friends. One was my friend Robin Ruzan who I didn't even know had had an UFO experience and I've known her for over 30 years, like almost 40 years. And that she'd been living with this thing, this incident in her life. And been like ashamed of it and was like carrying that around. And we also had a friend of Tom's who had an abduction experience. And I think it's like those kind of human stories. But then we've definitely had some really amazing guests on, some from the military. We had Mario Woods on who saw a huge UFO he described as being the size of a Walmart-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Cool.
DAVE FOLEY
Above a nuclear missile silo.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I love that stuff.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
It sounds a lot like the Hudson Valley incident.
DAVE FOLEY
Well that's my friend Robin was in the Hudson Valley incident. Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh wow!
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. So she was there and she said like her whole neighborhood, like 1000 people were out in the street looking at this gigantic craft. And then like the next day no one would talk about it. Like everybody just went oh, everyone will think we're crazy. Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
The stigma was real for a very long time.
DAVE FOLEY
Oh yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Now I feel like... I don't know. Is it still a stigma?
ED LARSON
Not in this room.
DAVE FOLEY
No, not here. No.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Why are you here? How did you get here, Dave? Like how did you get to the UFO sickness? Like why do you have this?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. Has it always been... Like when you were writing like having a good attitude about menstruation-
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Were you like reading the alien books in between all those sketches?
DAVE FOLEY
Well I was always interested in it. And I did write some sketches about aliens and some of them I kind of regret a little now. But it was always something I was interested in. And even when I was doing NewsRadio, like Joe Rogan and I would talk about UFOs all the time back in those days.
ED LARSON
Oh yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's right, that you were with... But that was like before. For a long time Rogan was a skeptic.
DAVE FOLEY
Well he was a hardcore believer back in the 90s.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And then yeah, I was actually gonna go on his podcast. And the night before I texted him and said Joe, you're gonna be excited to know that I'm deep into UFOs right now. And he texted back that's all bullshit.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Oh my god.
DAVE FOLEY
And I was going what the fuck?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He went through a whole phase where he was deeply anti UFO.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And then I was really surprised when he was like kind of now the face of the new whistleblower movement.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Well you can thank me for that.
ED LARSON
Nice.
DAVE FOLEY
Because that night after he texted that I said really? And I texted him a bunch of movies that I thought he should watch. One of them was Jeremy Corbell's Bob Lazar movie but also some of James Fox's stuff. And then like at four in the morning I get a text from Joe saying I'm back in.
MARCUS PARKS
So what was it that turned you back around to this like new renaissance of alien interest?
DAVE FOLEY
Well I think the thing that really got me was James Fox's movie Out of the Blue.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, James Fox.
DAVE FOLEY
Which I think it was the first documentary I saw that was well made.
MARCUS PARKS
Yes, very well made.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Had Peter Coyote narrating it so it seemed/sounded authoritative. And it was also just the first time I was exposed to a lot of these incredible witnesses from military and government and fighter pilots from all over the world, all these amazing stories that I wasn't aware of.
MARCUS PARKS
It was the one that turned both me and my wife around.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
It was like we just watched it on a whim one night and by the end of it we looked at each other like oh fuck.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah. I was just sort of going well I like to think of myself as a smart person.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And if this is going on, as a smart person I should be paying attention. And how was I discouraged from caring about this for so long?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. And I guess to that point, what type of witness do you consider to be the most trustworthy?
DAVE FOLEY
Like the most? I mean I think probably fighter pilots.
ED LARSON
Yeah, that's where I'm at too.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Just because-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They have so much to lose.
DAVE FOLEY
Well yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And that's what they do, they look out a cockpit all day.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. And they're training. Because there's always that... To be generous, I'll call them those idiots who say well eyewitness testimony is the worst kind of testimony. And I was going oh well, all right. Yeah, if you're standing in a bank and a bunch of people come in with guns and hold the place up, yeah, you're not gonna be a great witness because you're gonna be panicked and you're gonna be fearful and that's gonna affect your... But I say like if you ask me to walk through a park and then when I get the other end say Dave, tell me all the plants you saw. So I'll be pretty vague, I'll say oh I saw some trees, I saw a palm tree. There was grass and some shrubs. All right. But if you ask a botanist to walk through that park and at the other end of it say tell us what you saw, you'll get a lot more detail. But if you tell the botanist beforehand we want you to tell us everything you see in this park at the other end of it, they'll have incredible detail and they'll have observed very closely everything. And that's what fighter pilots do because they know after every mission they fly, they'll be debriefed, even if nothing happens.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
They'll be debriefed on it and they'll have to give a full account of everything they did on that mission.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And you'll definitely have to tell that botanist to shut that everliving fuck up.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah. Sorry I asked.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Just like shut up about the plants.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Why are you doing this? Why did I ask you to do this in the first place?
MARCUS PARKS
And that's what makes me just fascinated about like fighter pilots, passenger jet pilots, the amount that have been coming out now.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
It's just mind boggling to think of how many there are that have said nothing.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
That are afraid to come out. There has to be thousands.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. And still, I mean because pilots who did say things in the past, they lost their chance to fly planes anymore.
ED LARSON
Yeah, especially if you work for like Delta. They don't want people like that.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. I want my experiencers in the Delta lounge. Like I'll hang with them in the lounge and it's nice to hang out at the Cabo Wabo with the... But it's having them fly the plane would scare me.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Well.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Like that's not what I want. Do you-
ED LARSON
Do you think this UFO wants to play chicken?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Also we just had a conversation with George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell.
DAVE FOLEY
Yep.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And one of the things that we talked about was the fact that a lot of these guys kind of get off on the fact that they have secrets. There is that other side of it. And then also George Knapp kept bringing up the fact that some people do actually, like are patriots.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Which I forget.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because the word 'patriot' to me is a bad word.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, it's been colored-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
By horrible people.
ED LARSON
Tom Brady.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Also like why would you pat yourself on the back from just coming out the vagina wherever you're at? You didn't choose it.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Well some argue. I don't believe it but some say we choose our parents.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
God. I did?
DAVE FOLEY
I didn't, I didn't. No, man. If that's really on me then I owe me an apology. Yeah.
ED LARSON
Now when it comes to this subject, don't you feel like secrecy is counterproductive to learning anything?
DAVE FOLEY
Well certainly the people that aren't keeping the secret, sure. Yeah. But well that's the thing, I mean I'm sympathetic to the notion that there are things that need to be kept secret.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
There are national security concerns. Because there are adversaries that do wish us harm. And of course they feel the same way about us.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Can you imagine giving all of these secrets to other comedians? You know what I mean?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Like this is not... Like just the fact that comedians are embracing this subject and they're the least respected, least trusted source. As they should be.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
As they're supposed to be.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So it does sort of seem very appropriate.
DAVE FOLEY
To keep the secrets from us or give them to us? Or to have them?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Maybe to give it to us.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Maybe the idea is to let us... Like that's why we're getting all these great guests in the UFO world.
DAVE FOLEY
Well maybe, yeah. Well here's the thing, comedians were for decades, we were really good useful idiots for creating the stigma.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Comedians played an outsized role in really harming people who had had these experiences.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
Absolutely.
MARCUS PARKS
Oh I mean how many anal probe jokes have been made?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. I wrote a whole sketch about it, man.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. I've made many probing jokes.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Probably 25 in the last 17 hours.
DAVE FOLEY
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
You made 25 yesterday.
DAVE FOLEY
I have to say in my defense when I wrote that sketch, it wasn't really about aliens, it was about how I felt about being in The Kids in the Hall at the time. So I was like I was really going year five, how many more of these fucking sketches can I write? Oh we gotta be so edgy.
MARCUS PARKS
So on your podcast, which guest to you has been the most surprising?
DAVE FOLEY
Oh the most surprising...
MARCUS PARKS
Or even the most fascinating.
DAVE FOLEY
Well now I gotta try and remember names because I always forget everybody's names.
MARCUS PARKS
Oh so do I.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Because even my family members.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I just do it by shape and colors.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. I'm trying to think.
MARCUS PARKS
I mean we can definitely-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You don't have to.
DAVE FOLEY
The most surprising... Well I would say, I mean Whitley Strieber was a challenging-
MARCUS PARKS
Challenging.
DAVE FOLEY
Interview, yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
That's also another adjective we can use when talking about UFO guests is challenging.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Challenging.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah because I was like huh? And it's like so much stuff was coming at us, Tom and I were both going hold on. And what? Let's go back to this 11 year old who shows up in your yard. Let's talk.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
What? And we're trying to figure out... That was a very, yeah, there was a lot to sort of try and grasp and keep straight in your head when you're talking to him. And I guess I'll go back to Mario Woods was really incredible. His story was pretty surprising. There was details I hadn't heard before.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Do you feel like you've already opened your life to so many psychopaths by being in show business-
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That like is this not just a further descent into bringing like kind of unreasonable, undealable with humans into your life?
DAVE FOLEY
Well look, that ship had sailed when I agreed to work with the other Kids in the Hall.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
I gave up any hope of living amongst reasonable people.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. At least it gives you a good-
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's a very good barometer, good armor.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
I just realized, you know who was also very surprising was Richard Dolan. But it was really surprising because he was a huge Kids in the Hall fan.
ED LARSON
Really?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Great!
DAVE FOLEY
Which I did not anticipate at all. He was like yeah, he was like fanboying and I was like oh my god. And I was trying to think I don't think I ever remember seeing Richard Dolan laugh.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Literally. I don't thing I've ever seen him smile.
DAVE FOLEY
No, no. He's always so serious. Yeah. So that was a real surprise. That was a delightful surprise.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Is there anyone in Hollywood or are there people... How prevalent is like the belief in aliens in mainstream Hollywood?
DAVE FOLEY
I think it's probably about the same as with any other community. I think I definitely know people that have had experiences and won't talk about it because they're afraid of the stigma still.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
They don't want to be considered crazy UFO people. But then again, once I started talking about UFOs publicly I was also startled by the number of people who came over to me with their stories and told me what had happened to them.
MARCUS PARKS
Well before we get... I mean you mentioned the Mario Woods story-
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And I know you want to talk about that one. But before we get to that-
DAVE FOLEY
I don't want to talk about anything.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's a real comedian.
MARCUS PARKS
You came out with your own UFO experience.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Like a very real credible UFO experience. I saw the drawing that was done of your sighting. Tell us about that. Tell us about that night.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Well that was pretty... Yeah. It's weird in ways that aren't just about the UFO part of it. Yeah. I was with my, well you were just talking to Jeremy Corbell earlier, it was with my friend Jeremy who I'd become friends with because I was talking about his movie with Joe on Joe's podcast. And Jeremy reached out to me on Twitter and we so we became friends. So after we were friends for a few years, I was out visiting Jeremy and we were out walking his dog out on sort of a country road. And it was a beautiful night. And I was standing there like looking at all the commercial air traffic way off in the distance and thinking wow, this would be a great night to see something. And 30 seconds later, Jeremy goes Dave, turn around. And I turn around and off right where I had been looking at the air traffic, there was this orangey-gold object about 10 times bigger than anything else over there. And it was pulsing with this orange light and it had three white lights on the front of it as it was coming around. And it was like a sort of a rounded triangle shape.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Like this? Kind of like a yield sign kinda?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Kind of, yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Sort of like those hearts that are being sold made out of quartz over in the merch area here?
DAVE FOLEY
Oh I haven't seen. Oh I should go get one.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You should go get one.
MARCUS PARKS
You should go get one. That'll really rebalance you.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Yeah. And I should get some of the muscaria over there.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
What's muscaria?
DAVE FOLEY
Mushrooms.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
They're legal ones.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, I have some. We have some. We can get you some.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah. But yeah. So I saw this thing and it circles this valley that we're in, like I said it goes from like a two o'clock position in the sky all the way around to about a seven o'clock position. And neither of us, like we didn't say anything, we didn't react to it. We were both just completely silent and calm. Neither one of us got excited. Except at one point Jeremy goes 'I'm not even going to try to take a picture'.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And I know that Jeremy practices getting his phone out and getting the settings right.
MARCUS PARKS
Like a quick draw?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Wow.
DAVE FOLEY
And I think he's got like a Galaxy phone with the great lenses on it just for that purpose. And me, it didn't even occur to me to even think about taking a picture.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But that's what they say. That's why I get the complaint a lot over all the years of people saying why is there no good footage after all of this time, with all of this technology? Like why?
MARCUS PARKS
Like every person in the world has a camera in their pocket.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's because thankfully the phenomena largely impresses you to a point-
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Where you don't necessarily want to take a picture immediately.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Well I actually felt like when it was over... Because again, we said nothing til it finally went off behind the mountains. And then Jeremy goes dude, that was a UFO. And I go yeah, I think that was a UFO. And then we started talking. But I felt like the thing we were looking at was in control of how we responded to it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
You know?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You hear that time and time again.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
ED LARSON
I felt the same thing when I saw Bruce Springsteen.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah. Why am I not screaming? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or why am I still here three hours later?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Stop playing Rosalita.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Well I very much appreciated like the way that you went on Twitter with it. Did you draw that yourself, the picture of it?
DAVE FOLEY
I did. Well that's the other weird thing is I can't draw. But then like the next day I thought I wanted... Because I felt like this memory was getting pulled out of my head already.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And so I sat down with my iPad and opened up an app I'd never used before. Immediately found exactly the colors I needed, found exactly the tools I needed to draw it. And in like 15 minutes I went oh okay, I'm done. And again, I can't draw at all. I have no ability.
MARCUS PARKS
It's a very evocative picture.
DAVE FOLEY
And I sent it to Jeremy right away and said is this what we saw? And he said yeah, that's exactly what it looked like.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Damn.
MARCUS PARKS
It's incredible. But I do also appreciate your responses to other people. It was the classiest way to say 'I know what I saw' that I've ever read.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Well I mean to me it was just I figured I guess part of my whole career, I've never really cared much about what you shouldn't talk about.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Obviously. And the kind of comedy that I've always done. So I thought well I don't really care what people think of me. So if I can go ahead and talk about it and maybe sort of lessen the burden that somebody out there has who's like walking around with this, an experience that they don't talk about.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It probably also makes you a much better sympathetic interviewer to people who have seen some shit.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So you don't immediately go like 'why didn't you take a picture?'
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah. I know. And people kept saying if this is real, why aren't you out there investigating this and trying to prove it? I said I'm not interested in proving it.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
I have zero interest in proving that I saw this. I'm just telling you an experience I had and you don't have to believe it. I really don't care.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Unfortunately again, Dave, you're new to UFO culture. So you're being too reasonable.
DAVE FOLEY
I found that out, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So I need you to sort of up the anger.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I need more reactionary energy from you.
DAVE FOLEY
Yes, I know. Because yeah, I love it. And I was talking to George and Jeremy. I love the people that their whole attitude is I'm bored, tell me something new! I don't care if you go to prison for it!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I want things to stay the same! I want things to stay the same, I'm sick of it, I'm sick of the new.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Well I guess speaking of going to prison, how do you feel, like as sort of a person who's new to this world, how do you feel the whistleblower movement is going right now?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
How's it going?
MARCUS PARKS
How's it going? Like how do you see this whistleblower movement?
DAVE FOLEY
Well I think it's been very effectively crushed.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
I mean but not entirely crushed. I mean I think-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Effectively Grusched.
DAVE FOLEY
Grusched, yes. I think we still have this, David Grusch is still I think heroic for what he's done. And I think people, yeah, people like Grusch and Lue Elizondo, these people who are willing to really sacrifice their own security, their own... People, they're losing their like retirement incomes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah. They're tearing Grusch apart now. They're tearing him apart.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They came out, they released his like bipolar disorder diagnosis.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They released like all this stuff to basically say they're slamming him because I guess he's skipping out on meetings with AARO.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He's supposed to be going to meet with them and they're like well he didn't show up to his appointment.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Well that's the thing and of course no one's going to meet with AARO because they're full of shit.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. I guess it doesn't matter.
DAVE FOLEY
Everyone knows. Yeah, everyone knows AARO is a complete sham.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And so most of the people that are sort of queued up to be whistleblowers, none of them want to talk to AARO because no one trusts them. You've got Sean Kirkpatrick going around on his campaign of character assassination. Not just of Grusch, he's basically calling anyone in Congress who's taking this seriously deluded and they're part of a religious cult. And that's going all the way up to people like Chuck Schumer, Mike Rounds. So it's like yeah, there's not a lot to encourage people to go to AARO.
MARCUS PARKS
Sure. I mean AARO, the way that they look at it, it reminds me of when Fife Symington, the mayor of Phoenix who was in power after the-
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I still that guy a beatdown, dude.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Well if you don't know, the Phoenix Lights is possibly one of the largest and most widely seen UFO events in recent times. Fife Symington, the mayor, came out and said guys, listen, we solved it, we've got the perpetrators. And he brought out a guy in an alien costume.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Handcuffs on him. And it was insulting.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah.
ED LARSON
But he's also the dude who let Joe Arpaio go wild for however long.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. But then years later he came forward and said I saw it. Yeah, he said no, I think it was a nonhuman craft. And he admitted, he said I saw it, he said I saw the craft. And he said I'm a pilot, that was not anything that we have.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And your name's Fife, dude.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
What are you some kind of like grasshopper apprentice to a magician? Like that is the weirdest name I've ever heard for a governor.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. Fife Symington.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Fife Symington?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Well his brother Piccolo Symington...
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh hello, welcome to Arizona!
ED LARSON
Don't mind the rats.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They are my family.
MARCUS PARKS
Well I guess recently we've had certain UFO, more like alien stories in the news. The mummy. The Peruvian mummy.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, see that's the thing. I keep thinking my aperture of credulity, I keep thinking I can keep it tight, I can keep it focused. And then the mummies come along and I go to myself, okay, that's just bullshit, right? I don't have to pay attention to that. And then it turns out you do have to pay attention to it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Welcome to ufology.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Because there's a lot of people studying these things and saying oh yeah, these are not manufactured.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They have bones in them. They do have bones in them. They are definitely some form of construct.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They don't know exactly. But they do believe that they might be some form of ceremonial baby mummy which is cute as hell.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And I hope Alec Baldwin, I mean hopefully his trial goes well so he can play baby mummy. Because I think that would be very good. But it's a whole thing. Did you see the way they brought it in to the Peruvian government when they were doing the big hearing? When the guy brought-
DAVE FOLEY
Oh yeah, yeah, the suitcases, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He literally brought them in in two suitcases-
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Like he was like an old timey vacuum salesman.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Jaime Maussan. And again in Mexico, he's a celebrity. His show is huge.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He's the real deal.
DAVE FOLEY
But he is a bit of a huckster.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
I mean there's a bit of a PT Barnum quality to him.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Can I ask your opinion on the inclusion of the huckster in this world? It's like I kind of believe that-
MARCUS PARKS
This is an ongoing argument between me and Henry.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. Well I believe that the huckster is crucial to the paranormal world because unfortunately the huckster is the guy that packages it for public consumption.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And then puts it out. And then the problem is that then the huckster is the one who also makes the money on top of it.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Which is the sad part of the industry, the fact that there's an industry built around it. But I do think that of the razzle-dazzle is like important for the thing.
MARCUS PARKS
Well and my argument against that is that the huckster is so easily disproven-
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
That it disproves and discredits the entire movement.
DAVE FOLEY
Yes. It blurs all of the distinctions and what you can consider to be credible. Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
So I'm right.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You guys can agree. I have a huckster... I'd say that it's like people have ENFP or whatever that phenotype is. I think I'm that.
DAVE FOLEY
I have no idea what you're talking about.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I don't know, buddy. Have you went and gotten your balls measured? It's incredible. They tell you your personality by your balls. It is over by the court's dildos. By the vibrating pads?
DAVE FOLEY
Oh my god, so that's what that guy was doing.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
I thought someone who was just being pleasant. Why thank you, sir.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. A guy came up to me, grabbed my balls, and he said you're an extrovert.
DAVE FOLEY
I think the guy grabbing your balls is probably an extrovert too.
MARCUS PARKS
I mean the huckster for me, it lives very much in like the cryptozoology world. Like my favorite huckster was the Bigfoot guy who showed up with a suitcase full of guts. Well it wouldn't be in like a suitcase, it was a cooler full of guts.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
That he said was Bigfoot guts.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Don't bring the head, just the guts. That's how we'll know.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Don't bring the feet.
MARCUS PARKS
And I don't know. Do you think that cryptozoology... Like how far outside of the UFO world do you go? Do you go into the cryptozoology world at all?
DAVE FOLEY
I don't want to.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Come on in, the water's fine.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah but then again, you sort of go... The trouble is you find out that there's overlap.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
There's overlap. And I mean it's like James Lacatski who ran the AAWSAP program, he's basically said that you can't really do a study of UFOs without also looking at the paranormal.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Because he said that wherever the UFOs show up, paranormal events happen.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. The flaps.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. So things happen. So there'll be UFOs and then there's gonna be poltergeists.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yep.
DAVE FOLEY
Or there's gonna be cryptids are gonna show up or there's gonna be portals. There's all these weird things are gonna show up around where UFOs are showing up. Like Skinwalker Ranch is a great kind of focal point for all of it. But he said yeah, if you want to understand the phenomenon, you have to look at all of it. You have to look at ghosts, you have to look at hauntings, you have to look at Bigfoot.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Each day you become a worse and worse person. Each day more and more difficult to reach.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
More and more difficult to build a bridge to.
ED LARSON
But who's to say a poltergeist isn't an alien life form?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. No, well I mean that's what they were experiencing at Skinwalker all the time. Classic poltergeist activity. And they're saying this is all part of the same phenomena. There's a trickster quality to the UFOs.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. Have you ever heard of the Pennsylvania UFO Bigfoot Flap of 1973?
DAVE FOLEY
No, no. It sounds like a great album.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
It's one of those cases where people were for months seeing UFO after UFO and people having like these very intense, aggressive encounters with Bigfoots.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Also are you Bigfoots or Bigfeet?
DAVE FOLEY
I would go Bigfeet, yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Wow.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You'd be incorrect.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. But then again, I cheer for a team called the Leafs. Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Well I guess in that same vein, some of our favorite stories throughout the years have been stories like the Battle of Dulce. Are you familiar with this story?
DAVE FOLEY
Yes, yeah. The general said he was basically on the construction crew of an underground bunker alien hiding place.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Phil Schneider.
DAVE FOLEY
Yes. And he had a shootout with aliens.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And I'll show you my laser scars.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Have you ever seen the thing where he lifts his shirt and you see the scars on it?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Which it just looks like my father had an old timey surgery where for some reason his esophagus was loose or something when he was a baby so they like carved him in half. And so he always had this scar across his belly.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And so yeah, Phil Schneider always shows the hand. He's like see what they did to my hand?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's very sad.
DAVE FOLEY
There's no other way to lose a finger. No, I mean that's one of the stories where I go I don't buy it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
I'm not kind of...
MARCUS PARKS
Do you think there's like... Because with stories like that, because I do look at the hucksters and the people who are far more credible. And we're kind of believers or at least I'm sort of a believer that like paranormal activity and sometimes UAP activity can be to the average person, let's say, extraordinarily dull. And it doesn't have a lot of zazz to it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's where the huckster comes in.
MARCUS PARKS
But that's the thing is like-
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Do you think that in those incredibly crazy stories, do you think there's a kernel of truth that kind of grows into something that eventually grows into reptilians vs grays and a character named (gasping sound) that blows off Phil Schneider's fingers?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Well I mean that's the thing is as I said, I keep wanting there to be something that I can just dismiss, just to narrow it down. And then you keep going oh but then something comes along. And to a certain extent, for a while I just didn't really want to think about the abduction phenomena.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
But then at a certain point I realized wait a minute, if I'm taking the notion that there are spacecraft circling our planet, interacting with people, that are showing up everywhere, it's more crazy to not think that abductions are real.
MARCUS PARKS
You don't even know what slippery slope you're on right now.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I narrated a documentary about the hybrid baby program.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And then when I met all these people... Because I did the same thing, I was like do I really want... If I do this voice on this, that means I believe in this.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And so I was just like send me the stuff. And so they sent me all the raw interviews.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And it's extremely compelling.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They are traumatized. They have dealt with something. These are people literally saying I had a baby inside of me, I watched a gray airlift it out of my belly. I went home, I had no baby inside of me anymore. And they're crying and stuff.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And first of all I don't have emotions so it's hard for me to accept. So like I'm sitting there... But obviously there's something happening.
DAVE FOLEY
Well yeah. I mean I remember reading David Jacobs' book 'The Threat' back in like the late 90s. And at the time I was like nah, this is too much. But then reading more about it and reading John Mack-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. He was legit too.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And he destroyed his whole life writing about it.
DAVE FOLEY
Oh yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, give us a little bit of a background on John Mack.
DAVE FOLEY
Well John Mack, he was the head of Harvard's psychiatry department and had won a Pulitzer Prize for his sort of psychological biography of Lawrence of Arabia. And he was pretty much as highly respected as you can be in the field of psychology and psychiatry. And I guess he got exposed to... Oh god, I'm blanking on his name, the guy who wrote 'Missing Time'.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh Budd Hopkins.
DAVE FOLEY
Budd Hopkins. Thank you, yeah. So he met Budd Hopkins and Budd Hopkins started telling him about the people he was working with. And so John Mack said well this sounds interesting. And so he started interviewing people.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Everything just blows up and everyone's saying stop, John.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Stop. And he doesn't.
DAVE FOLEY
Oh yeah. And people who, for no other reason than that he was taking abduction seriously, he was slandered by his colleagues and peers and he was investigated by his university. And they were going to try to take away his tenure. And they were criticizing him publicly all the time and talking about him like he had gone crazy. But if you looked at him and talked to him, you could see he hasn't gone crazy.
MARCUS PARKS
No.
DAVE FOLEY
And he doesn't think any of the people he's talking to are crazy. He thinks they have a real experience. And then he also wound up going to Zimbabwe to investigate the Ariel School sightings.
MARCUS PARKS
That's where I know his name from, the Ariel School.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
ED LARSON
That's the most interesting case I think I've heard.
DAVE FOLEY
Oh it's amazing, yeah. And the documentary about it is fantastic, The Ariel Phenomenon.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I feel like that is up there with my most compelling story.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Well the documentary you mentioned earlier, I mean that's just cinches it at the very end, it comes and it just kind of punches you in the face with the Ariel School phenomenon.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah. And again it's that thing, you realize that these kids have been living with the ramifications of having this experience. And a lot of them of having parents that wouldn't listen to them, wouldn't believe them. And the trauma of just not being listened to when you've had an experience that is life changing.
ED LARSON
Yeah. At least when you get attacked by a shark, people believe you.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We got evidence!
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Also what I've really been doing is helping my buddy, he's got two young boys and I've really tried to help them get acclimated to the world by dressing as a gray and hovering in front of their bedroom window before they go to sleep.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Only just to kind of get them used to it. I just do like a slow like wave, I go like this, I beckon them to come. I say the earth's in danger a lot.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But I just say (whispering) Earth's in danger, Earth's in danger. Just to kind of get them used to it.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And they so far have really been... They're doing well in school.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. It's a good thing. Not a lot of people take the time to do public service.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And they didn't ask for it.
DAVE FOLEY
No. That's what makes it more generous.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. They explicitly said they don't want it.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And I was like can you stop me? You have to sleep.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
ED LARSON
We're talking about this guy who put everything on the line, pretty much ruined his life to talk about this stuff. How close are you to ruining your life?
DAVE FOLEY
Oh not at all. Because there was no reason to take me seriously to begin with. But I mean there is a chance. I mean I don't know, there may be jobs I won't get because someone goes oh he's just crazy, crazy UFO shit.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Dude, Dean Cain still makes like three movies a year.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. They're weird.
DAVE FOLEY
Well there is a mystery.
MARCUS PARKS
So what is the violent opposition to it? What is behind the violent opposition to someone giving any sort of credence to UFOs?
DAVE FOLEY
Well it's deliberately created and there's like a paper trail on this. The CIA set up something called the Robertson Panel back in like 1952 because they were having a problem with like UFOs were buzzing the White House and the Capitol building over like two weekends. And everyone was seeing it and everybody was reporting it and everybody was all excited about it. And so the CIA got this panel together to try and figure out well what do we do about this? And their conclusion was well we can't do anything about the UFOs themselves, so let's get people to stop thinking about it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because then it's like it goes away.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. And that was their plan. And basically they used all the tools of public relations and propaganda that had been outlined, like some of it you can read in like Noam Chomsky's 'Manufacturing Consent'. And I forget the name of the guy who actually created that term back in the 20s, who inspired the Nazis as well. And yeah, there's a program of deliberate ridicule, debunking, and explaining and creating the stereotypes that everyone latched onto and believe. The idea that all UFO experiencers are toothless hicks in trailer parks.
MARCUS PARKS
Right.
DAVE FOLEY
And they're all crazy. And so that image of the UFO experiencer became so powerful that people who were perhaps lawyers, doctors, police officers, commercial pilots would say well I don't want people to think I'm that.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And so they would be silenced. So you had basically everyone too fearful to tell their truth. And it's so effective that you don't really, after a certain point, once you create the environment of what sensible people will and won't think about, you don't have to censor anything. You don't have to have a big massive conspiracy because it enforces itself. Like a lot of people I think, there's a lot of people are convinced that most of the mainstream press are on the payroll of the CIA.
MARCUS PARKS
Sure.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And that's why they won't talk about it. And that's probably true in some cases. I mean we knew that was true back in the 70s. Hundreds of reporters turned out to be on CIA payroll.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Oh I am as well.
DAVE FOLEY
Oh good. Yeah. So I'm gonna say it's probably true in some cases but I'd say for the most part, the editorial staff, the writers at The New York Times, they just don't believe it.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And they don't want to think about it and they won't look at the evidence. So all of their journalistic skills go out the window. If the Pentagon tells them something about UFOs, they don't question any of it, they don't do any follow up, they just print exactly what they're told by the government. And even like I remember watching a press conference, a Pentagon press conference and they're talking about UFOs. And the old thing, they say 95% of this we've been able to explain. Which is always garbage because yeah, you've explained this stuff that we all knew was garbage.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
But the only part that's interesting is that 5% you can't.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And then that they'll just say something like some things do display unusual flight characteristics. And not one journalist in the room said what would those be?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. What does that mean?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
They all just went oh, that's it? Just unusual flight characteristics? Oh well there, we don't need to worry about this. And the fact that those unusual flight characteristics are right angle turns at 5000 miles an hour-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Yeah, it would squish anybody inside into like a liquid.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I do think that there's a reticent fear. I think there's a fear.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I think there's a little bit still of just straight up that scares the shit out of me. I don't want to deal with it.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. And also just that fear of I don't want to lose my position in the culture.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
DAVE FOLEY
I'm the sensible one. I'm the smart one.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
No one is.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And I think what's also beautiful about the phenomena is that it does make a believer out of you whether you like it or not. Like I think about J. Allen Hynek.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
When he went into, he was the debunk officer and then he came out of it.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You hear time and time again, these guys that walk in as trying to be some form of objective observer, they see all of this stuff, it turns them crazy. Something happens.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They fall apart because the phenomena is going to get you whether you like it or not.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
ED LARSON
It's too much evidence.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Well David Grusch thought he was going to debunk the whole thing in a matter of months.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And he spent four years researching it and interviewing people. And that's the other thing, people call that hearsay. But no, a four year investigation by a trained intelligence officer-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Who has the highest clearances you can possibly have in government. A four year investigation, that is not hearsay, that is the result of a lengthy and serious investigation. That's like saying the prosecution in a murder trial, well we can't convict because it's just hearsay because the prosecutor didn't even commit the murder.
MARCUS PARKS
Well within that there's a bit of a conundrum. Not everyone could be telling the truth.
DAVE FOLEY
No.
MARCUS PARKS
Like when it comes to UFOs. It can't be that every single story... Where is the line of credulity?
DAVE FOLEY
Well that's the thing, I mean I think in general the vast majority of human beings are full of shit.
MARCUS PARKS
Right.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
We all are.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Me?
ED LARSON
Yes, Henry.
DAVE FOLEY
There are lots of crazy people in the world.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, there's a lot of people living with delusions. So the UFO community is no different from the rest of humanity.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But the connection to the intelligence services is also interesting because they also purposefully work with unreliable narrators.
DAVE FOLEY
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They purposely work with people-
DAVE FOLEY
They'll promote them, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. And they move them through the system. These assets, the whole point is that they're burnable, is that they serve a purpose and then we can scrape them off and no one's going to say anything. We're like oh he's just a loser.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Well I said that, that's part of the program, part of what the Robertson Panels recommended was to do that.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And you hear from a lot of intelligence people, military people will say yeah, we didn't really have to do that much, the UFO community would do it for us.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Yeah, the UFO community has not really been the best at messaging.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And I think a lot of it has to do with the lack of belts and the use of suspenders. And I think that there's a lot of lead and there's a lot of stuff in a lot of the pendants that these guys are getting from some of these vendors.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
ED LARSON
I think unfortunately you have to sift through all the bullshit to find anything that's credible.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. And again, that's just true of every walk of life. If you put away all your critical faculties. But then again, sometimes those critical faculties tell you oh I have to believe some crazy shit that I don't want to believe.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
For me as a lifelong atheist, I don't like the idea that I can no longer just blanket call religious people nuts.
MARCUS PARKS
Right.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Because now I'm going well there's overlap there too.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, it's a lot of stuff.
DAVE FOLEY
Maybe a lot of like the... Because I always thought of religious miracles that almost every religion has, I always thought those were just bullshit stories told to con the marks.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
But now I'm going well all right. Well I guess miracles can happen and if you're living at a time or your frame of reference is religious, then you're gonna interpret these weird things as miracles and give them religious value. But I mean as someone who believes what people say about their abduction experiences, I mean if people can be levitated out of their beds and floated through solid walls, that pretty much qualifies as a miracle.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Sure. It's the idea that any technology that is sufficiently advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Arthur C. Clarke.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. But I mean now we gotta go well you know what? The Greek gods, that might have all kind of had a seed of truth to it.
ED LARSON
Makes as much sense to me as the bible.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
My theory about a lot of the Greek gods is I think that famous people of the time became archetypes and as time went and the natures and the actual personalities that those things were represented on, that time passed. And that eventually they just became figures of something. Like Dionysus was a guy or a person that was like in the old, old, old days.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It was a guy that he always was the party guy, he always did the thing. And then it turned into a blown out version later on.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. That's quite possible.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Or it's total horseshit.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Or there were aliens-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
That did things that looked like magic and they seemed to be able to manipulate reality.
ED LARSON
It's interesting you brought that up because I'm also a lifelong atheist. And so it's like what is it about aliens that I believe in that like I can't put that towards religion?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Well because an alien hasn't like got me super guilty about masturbating.
DAVE FOLEY
No.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They want you to.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They're excited for it because they don't want to pin you to the table and fish that thing up your urethra. They want you to just give it to them.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, it might just be an alien has never asked you for money.
ED LARSON
That's what it is.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's the thing is that there's no guy that wears... I mean, well, David Miscavige.
MARCUS PARKS
Okay. Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
David Miscavige. Scientologists do ask you for money.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That crew-
DAVE FOLEY
The Catholics own a lot of nice property too.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah. They could liquidate.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Have you seen the pack of people in the Enterprise uniforms?
DAVE FOLEY
I saw them, I didn't know what they were.
MARCUS PARKS
I have no idea. They look like Sea Org but I don't know if they are.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I thought they were but they are their own LARPing community I believe is the term. Where they work and live and act as if they are a star fleet on their own.
DAVE FOLEY
Wow.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And I actually wonder if they have dues.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Like if they have to pay in.
DAVE FOLEY
I'm probably not the person to ask.
MARCUS PARKS
Actually I'm the person to ask because I did speak with these people quite extensively at WonderCon last year.
DAVE FOLEY
Oh there you go.
MARCUS PARKS
Oh yeah, there's dues.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Yeah, those outfits don't come from nowhere.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They are expensive. They have all the medals and they have all the sashes.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And unfortunately depending on where you live in California, you are assigned a spaceship. Like you can't just say like oh my favorite's Deep Space Nine, I can't say oh I want to be on Deep Space Nine. Because of where I live, I have to be an enterprise. Scott Bakula has to be my captain. It fucking sucks. I'm mad about it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Do you know Scott Bakula?
DAVE FOLEY
I don't know Scott Bakula. I don't.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
There goes the rest of this.
DAVE FOLEY
I don't know. I don't.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That was all I was gonna talk about. I've been waiting for my in. To feel like I get to him.
DAVE FOLEY
Well when it comes to close encounters, you've mentioned how like you've come closer to believing in abduction scenarios and all that.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. I believe the stories that have been told.
MARCUS PARKS
One of the things that we've I guess discussed on the show is like whether this is physical phenomena, whether you physically go into a spaceship or whether it's psychic phenomena. Because I know you recently, on the latest episode of your podcast, you talked a lot about like DMT and how that might relate to the experience. Do you think there's anything to the idea that UFO experiences are a purely psychic phenomenon?
DAVE FOLEY
Well I think, I mean that was the big divide between Budd Hopkins and John Mack. John Mack was of the opinion that it's a real experience but not necessarily a physical experience.
MARCUS PARKS
Sure.
DAVE FOLEY
And Budd Hopkins was pretty convinced that no, this is something that's really physically happening. And he cited the fact that because they have evidence that people are actually missing, they're gone for a period of time and then they're back. And the people in their homes are aware of it. So I mean I think as with almost everything to do with UFOs, it's probably a mix of both. I think probably some of the time these abductions are just call it a psychic experience because maybe they are gone to the extent that their consciousness is taken away and taken somewhere else.
MARCUS PARKS
Sure.
DAVE FOLEY
And that somewhere else could be an actual physical space as well. But your body doesn't go with you on it. Because the other part of the overlapping is the whole near death experiences or now what some people are calling it, recalled experiences of death. Because we're now reviving people who have been dead for over an hour.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Does that work?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We don't come back all weird?
ED LARSON
I mean yes.
DAVE FOLEY
It's tricky because here's the weird thing is when someone's been dead for that long, reintroducing blood and oxygen to the brain, it's toxic to the brain at that point and can kill the brain. So they're developing techniques for how to reintroduce the blood back into the brain, like basically moving the blood throughout the whole body before it gets to the brain.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Whoa!
DAVE FOLEY
In order to avoid poisoning the brain with blood.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
If I've been dead for two hours and I come back, do I still have to work for money?
DAVE FOLEY
I know.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I feel like that should mean I'm out. I feel like that should mean like you're dead.
DAVE FOLEY
Well I think the doctor should be responsible for you for life.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
That should be like yeah, I was in a good place.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
But yeah. But Parnia Labs at NYU, there's a doctor, Dr. Parnia, there's a great 45 minute documentary on YouTube about it. But he said yeah, he said an hour, this isn't a near death experience. These people are dead dead.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
DAVE FOLEY
These are good and solidly dead people and they come back. And they come back with experiences that can't be explained because all of their sensory apparatus is dead.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
But they're still having these experiences and there's a certain uniformity to the experiences. And I mean one of the things that's kind of a drag for religion is that it seems like everybody gets in.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
You don't have to follow any rules.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Right at the end, you can kill nine families.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And like play with their bodies, make puzzle pieces out of their child's skin. And at the moment you die, you can ask for forgiveness. And god's like got it!
DAVE FOLEY
Oh that's god. But I'm just saying like everyone who dies seems to have an experience where they go to this place and everyone says oh, I felt wonderful, I felt this overwhelming sense of love.
MARCUS PARKS
And they describe a place.
DAVE FOLEY
A place, yes. Yeah. A lot of them it's a place, a very familiar place. Like a beautiful field or some people are in just sort of a light-filled void. But yeah, they describe being somewhere and meeting people.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Interesting.
ED LARSON
My father died for six minutes and he said nothing. He said there's nothing.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah?
ED LARSON
He's like yeah, yeah, yeah, you got nothing to look forward to, it's all...
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I just want to make sure we leave you feeling hopeful.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Would you do the, not do the neuralink but something like a neuralink? Would you think you'd ever do that? Do you think that you'd go transhuman?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, I'd probably do that. Yeah, yeah. Just out of boredom.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I just wonder because I really do... Because they talk about like the human body can probably naturally live to the year 200 and shit.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's like my parents hit 72 and they are out of money.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They have absolutely nothing.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. That is a problem. Yeah, I keep thinking. Because I used to think oh yeah, I'd like to live 200 years. And now that I'm 61 I'm going oh jeez, I don't wanna keep working that long.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's what I'm saying. We should be put in like a field or something. There should be a field that we're put.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Yeah. That sounds really nice.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I think that sounds relaxing.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. I mean if I thought death was imminent, the first thing I was thinking about that I would want to do is make sure I got a lot of naps in.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Because as far as I can tell, there's no napping in the afterlife. You never hear anyone saying oh it was great, I found a nice hammock and I laid down for a while.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
No.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's like the pressure of meeting every person you've ever known.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Talking to all your old relatives.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They're asking shit about like who's won the last 50 Super Bowls and you're like shut the fuck up.
ED LARSON
Aunt Judy, I thought you were gone.
MARCUS PARKS
So lastly, what is your case right now? What's the case you're obsessed with right now?
DAVE FOLEY
That I'm obsessed with? Oh gosh, I don't know. Jeez. Well I think actually right now the thing that's bothering me, mostly it bothered me that no one's paying attention to it, is the fact that like Langley Air Force Base is constantly being buzzed by something they keep insisting are drones. But for some reason Langley Air Force Base, where they store the top of the line jets for the country, it's also the front line if anything happens in Washington, they take off. They can't seem to shoot down even one of these drones. And this keeps going on and it's been happening for months and months. And they just keep sort of dismissing it. And again, the press just go oh drones, who cares then? But no, this is restricted airspace that these things are coming into.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And they can't knock them out of the sky. And at the same time when Iran sent hundreds of cruise missiles and drones to attack Israel, they were able to shoot down 99% of them.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. And they just said... And then when we shot down that object over Alaska, it was the size of a sedan, we shot down that very quickly. I do think that they're full of shit.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. And then they forgot to watch where it landed.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
What I love about the show is that I'll get like the emails from people. Like at the time they were like you remember what they said when they shot the object over Alaska? They're like the storm's here, we can't find it. And they were all like it was clear for a week.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It was utterly... It's just in the middle of nowhere. And they said they saw copters going back and forth and they were doing something but it was like-
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You didn't find this super top secret thing?
DAVE FOLEY
And originally they said it landed on the ice. So pretty easy to spot something that isn't ice on the ice.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
So do you think with all this stuff, are we getting closer to contact, like to full contact? Or has it always been this way and people are just starting to talk about it?
DAVE FOLEY
I think it has always been this way. I mean it seems that there's certainly a lot of good evidence that these incidents, these kind of experiences have been going on for thousands of years.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Like as far back as we have recorded history. Even in petroglyphs we're seeing these things. So it seems like it's been going on for a long time. And there certainly has been an awful lot of interaction with humanity and there's certainly abductions. We're probably talking just in the United States, millions of people have probably had this experience. So it's just a question of are we ever gonna get to a general acknowledgement from society that this stuff is real and it's happening. And once we do, I still worry, I don't know how the world works once we're all admitting it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Well this is the thing that's now come up several times in a conversation this weekend that we've talked about, this idea of what disclosure means. What does it look like? Like I still have the belief that a UFO could land on the lawn of the White House and people would not even believe it. Now that at this point the information is so hard to confirm, everybody doesn't believe in the mainstream media.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Why in the living fuck would they believe that a UFO is real?
MARCUS PARKS
Or they would ignore it because what does a UFO have to do with the price of a gallon of milk?
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. So I've had that conversation with somebody who said well okay, well maybe UFOs are real but how does it affect me?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
And I said well I understand that. But I said hey, did you see that photograph of the black hole? And they go oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well why were you interested in that?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, exactly.
DAVE FOLEY
You think you're being rational but you aren't. It isn't a rational thing. Well it doesn't affect me so I'm not gonna think about it. No, you've been conditioned to respond that way.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I can't care about UFOs, I'm searching for Kate Middleton. I've got to find her. This is a distraction, it's a smokescreen.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. All I know are people saying oh it's all a way for the Pentagon to get more money. No, they have more money than they know what to do with.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They don't need more excuses.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They're not asking for trillions.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. UFOs are not a good public relations ploy for the military.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
No.
DAVE FOLEY
Because it's basically you say hey, you gotta give us more money because we can't do a fucking thing!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, we don't know.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Now do you find this to be scary or interesting?
DAVE FOLEY
Both. I don't think it's wise to not be a little frightened by this.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
Because again, I don't know how it changes the balance of things if we as a species all agree that this is real. I don't know if that changes how we're interacting with the nonhuman intelligences, plural, which seems to be the case.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
DAVE FOLEY
I don't know how that changes how they deal with us. If we suddenly become more of a problem for them, what happens?
ED LARSON
So far we can't really get past the moon too far. So I don't think they're really worried about us.
DAVE FOLEY
No, eah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
No, no, no. I feel like it's also important that while we're invested in this material, it is good to keep a grounded foot outside.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's good to do things like be with family, people have family.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You know what I mean? Like people do stuff like that where they go anything else but UFOs, it's good.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. Well that's what people asked Lue Elizondo what he thought what people should do to prepare. And he just said hug your loved ones.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Because when that rain of fire comes down, we're all gonna be screaming, bubbling skeletons. Even if we're miserable. Even if we're here.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Hug your loved ones. And dynamite, dynamite is good.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, throw it at them. Have you now had enough time yet in ufology for it to bring stranger or more interesting or crazier people into your life than like Kids did? Or do you feel that you're still... Yeah, you're not there yet.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, no. I mean yeah, well you guys do comedy.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, we just dodge predators. You just dodge predators, then you just try to make it to the end.
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah. And I think it's actually brought a lot of very interesting people into my life and a lot of a lot of very serious people and a lot of...
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I find it extremely sad that this is probably the only way I would have gotten to meet you. But I'm really glad at the same time. It's a wonderful exploration.
DAVE FOLEY
It's much easier than you might imagine.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I'll find you now.
MARCUS PARKS
Dave Foley, ladies and gentlemen.
ED LARSON
Yeah!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
This is do good. Thank you so much.
MARCUS PARKS
Thank you so much.
DAVE FOLEY
Thanks for having me.
MARCUS PARKS
His podcast REALLY?! is available wherever podcasts are available, I imagine.
DAVE FOLEY
I hope so, yeah. I don't know why anyone would exclude it. Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
You've been doing it for about a year now, right?
DAVE FOLEY
Yeah, just under a year, I think. Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
So there's plenty of episodes out there. It's great. I've listened to a few episodes. So please go check it out. Anything else that you would like people to check out?
DAVE FOLEY
No.
MARCUS PARKS
Not the new Kids in the Hall show on Amazon?
DAVE FOLEY
No, no, no. If they haven't seen it yet, they're not going to. They don't want to. Otherwise they say oh I've been meaning to. You're just never going to.
MARCUS PARKS
And thank you so much to everybody who came out and saw all of our shows here at Contact in the Desert. Give yourself a hand.
ED LARSON
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Absolutely. And thank you, Contact in the Desert, for inviting us. This has been a lot of fun.
MARCUS PARKS
Yes. We hope to come back again next year. This has been such a great experience. So thank you all very much, ladies and gentlemen.
DAVE FOLEY
Thank you.
MARCUS PARKS
Have a good day. Enjoy the rest of your time at the conference.
ED LARSON
Bye.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Bye!