HENRY ZEBROWSKI
(singing) You know you got a hernia when your belly grows a tail. You gotta make that tail go back and forth so everybody knows you well. You got your hernia, little bump, you gotta push inside your gut. And then everybody knows you got one extra lump for the sluts?
ED LARSON
Wow.
MARCUS PARKS
Welcome to Last Podcast on the Left, ladies and gentlemen.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yep.
MARCUS PARKS
That was an entirely improvised tune by Henry Zebrowski.
ED LARSON
No way.
MARCUS PARKS
He didn't work... I mean you might think he spent all night working on that hernia song.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
A lot of people come at me and ask me all the time, where does it come from? How do you do it? And it's I have six writers and each day we sit and we hash back and forth and just that alone went through about three weeks of work.
ED LARSON
Yeah. That's beautiful.
MARCUS PARKS
That's nice. I'm Marcus Parks and I'm here with Ed Larson.
ED LARSON
Hello!
MARCUS PARKS
And today this is a Relaxed Fit.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
This is a Relaxed Fit.
MARCUS PARKS
Definitely a Relaxed Fit.
ED LARSON
A very uncomfortable Relaxed Fit.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Very much so.
MARCUS PARKS
But today we're gonna be talking about a specific case. We're gonna be talking about something that we've been obsessed with for a while now, the second season of the show about the subject just came out. We're gonna be talking about the curious case of Natalia Grace.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. And I will again, I already did my apology. I said it once and I'll say it again first off because I was interested in the story of Natalia Grace simply from the angle that the Orphan movie was real.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. Well that was the conceit. Because I mean to be fair, that's exactly how it was framed in the news.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Before the full documentary came out, it was framed in the news as a little person-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Evil orphan.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Evil orphan terrorizes precious mother.
MARCUS PARKS
Yes.
ED LARSON
I read the Daily Mail.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. It was framed as an evil orphan had come to America posing as a child and had terrorized a family, had terrorized a mother-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Sent by anti Zelensky forces from inside of Ukraine in order to destabilize Ukrainian support from within America.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. And that this person had terrorized these two people, one of whom was a mother who had written a book called 'The Spark' about raising an autistic son, raising him to be a genius.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. And she did it.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, and she did.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She did it.
MARCUS PARKS
And that was her conceit is that she did it and there was all of a sudden in their life, this crazy adult posing as a child that was bringing knives in their room and threatening to kill them and all that.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And had purposely sprouted bush hair.
MARCUS PARKS
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
As a tactic like a skunk does.
ED LARSON
Well you could do it if you think really hard and you press your hands together, you go (straining).
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Boink! Boink! Boink!
MARCUS PARKS
But none of that was true.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
No.
MARCUS PARKS
As we now know, it was a child the whole time.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Very much so.
MARCUS PARKS
Very much so a child.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Proof is in the pudding of that.
ED LARSON
So you love pudding. The pubic hair, all right. Can we talk-
MARCUS PARKS
It was a lie.
ED LARSON
It was a lie.
MARCUS PARKS
It was a lie.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We'll get to it.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, yeah, we'll get to it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We'll get to it. Also I've had back hair since I was 10.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So I had back hair before I had pubic hair.
MARCUS PARKS
Really?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I had chest hair before I had pubic hair.
ED LARSON
How can you tell if you have back hair before pubic hair?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Well I couldn't see my pubes at the time because I was fairly round.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But I could tell from the back hair because my mom said oh good, you're like your uncle Kevin. He was virile. She always told me back hair was a sign of virility.
ED LARSON
I guess so.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, look at me now.
ED LARSON
Yeah, all these children.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Look at it. I just keep late term aborting them.
MARCUS PARKS
So should we start with maybe going through the characters in this case?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh sure. Absolutely.
MARCUS PARKS
Going through all the people. So the main character here is Natalia Grace. She was born in Ukraine in 2003-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We think.
ED LARSON
Ish.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Or around. But definitely around 2003.
MARCUS PARKS
The documents that they received from Ukraine say that she was born in 2003. But it's within let's say plus or minus a year.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Man, the footage of that Ukrainian orphanage, it was frightening.
MARCUS PARKS
Where she came from.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, dude. It looked like an MK Ultra site.
MARCUS PARKS
Ukrainian and Russian former Soviet states, their orphanages have an absolutely horrific reputation.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's slander. I can't fucking even think. What?
MARCUS PARKS
No, these places are horror shows. And they've been horror shows forever. And they're basically, a lot of them are set up to drain as much money from America as they possibly can.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I think there's other ways to do that. Start a proxy war. Isn't that fun?
ED LARSON
And Ukraine, we all have a soft spot for them now.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Of course.
ED LARSON
But back in 2003, incredibly corrupt.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
There was a lot going on. It's a hard area to be in especially it seems as a child.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
In their version of the system, like the foster system because Natalia Grace, the stories that she talks about within that Ukrainian orphanage, like the idea that they... So in order to get all the kids in Ukraine in that orphanage to go to sleep at night, they had a man... You remember this? Dress up in a goblin mask and a suit. This is what, according to Natalia Grace and actually it kind of tracks, that he would chase them to sleep. Which is like it doesn't make a good attitude. Like can you be haunted to sleep each night? Because you either become Angelina Jolie or Wednesday Addams but real.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But I guess that's kind of what ended up kind of happening to Natalia Grace.
MARCUS PARKS
But I don't know about her memories because she came to the United States at a very young age, she was two or three when she came to the United States.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
And she was adopted by this family called the Ciccones.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes, the Ciccone family.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Which also because then she was named Natalia Lourdes Ciccone, which is Madonna's child's name as well.
MARCUS PARKS
Well yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Madonna's the Ciccones.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, Madonna's real last name is Ciccone.
ED LARSON
Oh that's cool.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. Yeah, Madonna Ciccone. I don't know if Madonna is her actual real first name but her last name is Ciccone.
ED LARSON
I would imagine Madonna's not her real name.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It might be like Lauren.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I think it might be.
MARCUS PARKS
But the Ciccones had her for two years. And Natalia Grace, she was born with-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That is her real name, it's her legal name.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, that is her real... Yeah. But she was born with a rare form of dwarfism so she requires a lot of medical attention.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
A lot.
MARCUS PARKS
A lot of medical attention. It's a very expensive child to have.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And so the Ciccones-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Specialty shoes, you need to have stuff set up in your house so they can reach things.
MARCUS PARKS
A lot of surgeries.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
A lot of surgery.
ED LARSON
Surgery constantly, yeah. 3200 people have this in the world, they said?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Damn.
MARCUS PARKS
It's very, very rare. But what the Ciccones did is that they started basically shopping her around, shopping Natalia around to other little people families.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Well because the idea of like maybe people that understand the syndrome or like what she deals with would probably help. Having an actual dwarf family raise you might because they know what to look for and they know how to help.
MARCUS PARKS
Yes. But it also came with a price tag it seems and it always... The Ciccones are a very mysterious people in this story because nobody has ever actually talked to them. They're very secretive, they're very reclusive, they're very litigious.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, they don't want to be involved in the story which I mean it's hard because they did what they felt was right by Natalia. And I don't know what else you're supposed to do about that.
ED LARSON
They knew they couldn't properly take care of her, you would think.
MARCUS PARKS
You would think, yeah.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
But eventually after passing over like two different little people couples, the Ciccones settled on Michael and Kristine Barnett. Now Michael Barnett, how would you describe Michael Barnett?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He-
ED LARSON
Is a weenie.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Is a weenie. He is one of the... I've talked about this on Side Stories and obviously he makes for good television.
MARCUS PARKS
He does.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
If you watch the actual series-
MARCUS PARKS
Animated.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Animated. But Michael Barnett is an absolute weasel.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I would put him towards he's like an evil pain butler to Kristine Barnett.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He was a very strange man, flair for the dramatic.
MARCUS PARKS
Very much so.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He's obsessed with himself, loves Alice In Chains. That's one of the best parts about him. Loved his little car, he pulls up in his little car.
ED LARSON
Has a convertible of some sort.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Absolutely. There's nothing wrong with that. And then he definitely looks like Fred Durst now on tour. Because you see how Fred Durst is doing the old man thing? But he is a shameless fame goblin.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That is now the center, he has centered himself into this story.
MARCUS PARKS
He's a narcissist first of all.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
I mean he's absolutely a narcissist.
ED LARSON
Absolutely.
MARCUS PARKS
And possibly on the spectrum in some way.
ED LARSON
Horribly dressed.
MARCUS PARKS
Always.
ED LARSON
And throughout the show, I watched seven episodes in the course of like 10 hours.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
ED LARSON
So I'm like a half broken right now.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
ED LARSON
But it seems like he slowly got worse dressed throughout. I know he has less money as time goes on.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
He was never dressed well.
MARCUS PARKS
No.
ED LARSON
Like the first interview, that tie, come on, kill him.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I think he's supposed to be, he's looking relatable. I think that's what he's doing. I think he's trying to show, being like I'm a guy, I'm a regular guy. When he did the act out of the first, when he was in that first season, when he is on the ground. I mean like I can't say anything, yeah. I'm like that.
MARCUS PARKS
Right, of course.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's how I speak.
MARCUS PARKS
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So a lot of times I'm watching him being like that's quite the storyteller right there. And I know this because I'm watching, it's like how I use my hands.
MARCUS PARKS
Histrionic is the way that I would absolutely describe this man.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And so Michael Barnett is married to Kristine Barnett. And Kristine Barnett is 100%, I mean from what I can tell from the documentary series and from what she said and blah, blah, blah, so on and so forth, sociopath. An absolute sociopathic personality.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She is a handful, that is for certain. Also in terms of just look, that ice blonde, like she's got to think she looks like kind of otherworldly. She looks like what's her name from the Golden Compass. Cate Blanchett kind of, like that style with like ice queen, whatever it is. Who was it from X-Men?
MARCUS PARKS
Emma Frost?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. She kind of looks like Emma Frost.
MARCUS PARKS
A dime store Emma Frost.
ED LARSON
I got like Brett Butler if she was a robot.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Regret Butler.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, we have Emma Frost at home, that's who she is.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But she wrote this book, 'The Spark'. Because they have their other son-
MARCUS PARKS
Their biological son.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Their biological son.
ED LARSON
One of the three.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes, the one that was featured on the documentary series, he was a child prodigy.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He broke all these records.
MARCUS PARKS
He gave his own TED Talk.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
I heard stories where he would take like popsicle sticks and toothpicks and he would build like the interstate, he would build like Indianapolis, he would build the interstate.
ED LARSON
Wow.
MARCUS PARKS
He knew all the names of the streets. He's an absolute genius.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Like an incredible, proven genius.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And as it seems, which I've heard a lot about prodigies. It's like that idea of when they try to move on past their prodigy stage, it's very detrimental to their mental health because a lot of times that accelerated intellect seems to sometimes affect a social ability, like it affects somebody bringing you in, especially if you're... They talk about with kids that get put ahead in class and how it kind of fucks up their social network a little bit and kind of fucks them up later on. I don't know if you've met anybody... And I love them but it's like you know many times you've met someone, I remember in school that went from homeschooling to came to public school.
MARCUS PARKS
Oh it's a tough transition.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And it's a hard transition because they come in and they're used to mom and dad being their social network. And so they kind of act like an alien. And I feel like in that way he suffered from that.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Where he got to the point where like now you're not a child anymore, where's the adult prodigy part?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And the pressure seems to make people kind of fold in a little bit.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Well Kristine wrote a book about raising this guy, his name is Jacob, wrote a book about raising him called 'The Spark' in which she takes a lot of credit for his genius.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Takes a lot of credit, basically saying if it wasn't for me and my superior skills, this child would not be the genius that he is. And it's successful. I mean this book was well known. There was a 60 Minutes segment on Jacob Barnett. I mean this woman gave talks. The book sold very, very well. So this woman was a known figure in I guess the parenting community, I don't know exactly what you'd call it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
According to here, Jacob Barnett is full on getting his doctorate right now.
MARCUS PARKS
That's incredible.
ED LARSON
Great.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, he's working hard, becoming a theoretical physicist sounds difficult.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. Jacob Barnett also, he was also abused as a child.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
In the show I would say he's the only likable character.
MARCUS PARKS
I'd say so.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But then also I feel bad for Natalia Grace because of what she went through and this process of being blamed.
ED LARSON
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Well the story of Natalia Grace is I think completely wrapped up in this documentary series. Because so far there have been two seasons, the documentary aired on ID Discovery, six episodes each, season one, season two. And the documentary itself kind of became a part of the Natalia Grace story.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Especially how they framed it because I would say that this documentary series is unethical to say the very least.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. It's very exploitive.
MARCUS PARKS
Very exploitive in a lot of different ways and towards a lot of people in the case, towards Jacob, towards Natalia.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I am thankful that Natalia actually does get to tell her story.
MARCUS PARKS
In the second season she gives a rebuttal.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
But in the first season the documentary filmmakers kind of like frame it as maybe she's an adult.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Maybe she's not. Maybe she's a sexual predator, maybe she's not. When they knew the entire time that she was a child.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
I was multiple episodes in when I still thought that she might be a little demon.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But that's how they set it up. And they set it up for narrative interest but it doesn't really serve, like you have to wait a whole season to find out that they knew for a fact that she was a child the entire fucking time. And that's the big key here is that where did it start? So Kristine Barnett, the Barnetts adopt Natalia Grace.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. In 2010 they adopted her.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She arrives at their home and it sounds like-
ED LARSON
Well they picked her up in Florida.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They picked her up in Florida.
ED LARSON
Little People of America or something were the ones that like sold her kind of.
MARCUS PARKS
I'm not sure about that, yeah.
ED LARSON
Okay. I'm still piecing together the documentary.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And if we get a couple of facts wrong, forgive us.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Sidestorieslpotl@gmail.com.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because we're just kind of talking about this this story.
MARCUS PARKS
Because I will say I know that there are people who feel very, very strongly about this case.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And I'm one.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And I get it. But I'm also gonna say that this case is extraordinarily messy.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's very messy.
MARCUS PARKS
It's very complicated. Everybody's got a different story as to what happened. And that's also on top of the fact that a lot of people depend on Natalia Grace herself as far as how things happened. But you also have to remember that she's working from a child's memory.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
She's talking about things that happened to her when she was 7, 8, 9, 10 years old.
ED LARSON
5. Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, 5.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She was literally forced to become an adult. By the time she was 9, she was definitely forced to become an adult because the courts did it.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But then later on, before that she really had a very tough life.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. And that's the other thing too is that it's also the memories of a person who has absolutely without a doubt, 100% been sexually abused at one point in her life.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. And thoroughly traumatized across the board.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. Thoroughly. And physically abused, mentally abused, emotionally abused.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's not good.
MARCUS PARKS
Every kind of abuse you could think of, she went through.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. So the Barnetts, they adopted Natalia. She arrived. Our read on the situation is that we think that Kristine Barnett was looking for material for her next book.
ED LARSON
Of course.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because technically that's also backed up by Michael Barnett, who believes that Kristine had openly said this, that this was a book... Basically of like kid flipper. I can get a kid in.
MARCUS PARKS
Any kid.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Any kid.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It doesn't matter, I can flip them, I can make them a success story.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. I can take a child with a very rare genetic disease with a lot of challenges and I can make them a genius.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Because I made my other son who has his own issues, I made him a genius so I can make anybody a genius. It's the big sequel.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. And obviously this is conjecture but it does seem to track.
ED LARSON
$600,000 on the first book advance, right?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
And so and then lord knows how much that successful book made after that. So we're talking probably a million dollars. She's looking at another meal ticket. This is all my opinion by the way.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, these are all opinions.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And that's not even counting talks that she could give, appearances.
ED LARSON
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
All the ancillary income you get from this shit.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. And so it seems that Natalia arrived and I think number one, her physical issues were apparent and they were not prepared.
MARCUS PARKS
No.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And then she came and all of a sudden... Because what she needed was a lot of care. She needed a lot of surgeries. She needed again, the prosthetic shoes. I believe the prosthetic shoes cost like $3000. It's like this is big money.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And she also showed up truly, desperately traumatized.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And sometimes it kind of prefers in a way, like she showed up not ready to be the prodigy that Kristine wanted her to be.
MARCUS PARKS
Not at all.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And then realized that I can't flip this kid. What do I do? I gotta get rid of this kid.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. And about a year before, a little movie called the Orphan had been released.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Which is a great movie. And I still wish it was real because that's fun as hell.
MARCUS PARKS
And so it's speculated that Kristine-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I know an orphan!
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, saw the movie and thought we'll just do that. We'll just prove that this little girl is an actual adult. And then once we prove that she's an adult, we can just kind of get rid of her, we can push her aside, we can get her out of here.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Well they tried a couple of things. At first it was trying to show that she was a danger.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So she started reporting that she was attacking people in the neighborhood and that she was attacking her fellow kids and that she was attacking people at school. We now know that Natalia's teacher came out and said that Kristine Barnett had made a report that Natalia was ramming kids with her wheelchair and being a wheeled terror inside of her classrooms. Natalia's teacher basically said that it didn't happen. Natalia's adopted mother, Kristine Barnett, was like she's a monster. We're trying to maybe get her into sort of like an asylum-like situation.
MARCUS PARKS
Well I mean there was so many things leading up to that, to the asylum type situation where it was them saying that she would show up in the middle of the night at the foot of their bed with a knife, saying I'm gonna kill you.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
They tried to throw her other kids into traffic.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. Exactly. Trying to lure them out, grabbing their toys and throwing them out in traffic, trying to lure them out into traffic.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And then sexually getting involved with her husband. She floated this idea that Natalia was seducing Michael.
MARCUS PARKS
Well that was a very interesting thing because she was also at the time she was messaging and in contact with a little person country singer named Freddie Gill.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
This guy is a fun character.
MARCUS PARKS
He's a fun character. He goes by the name of Two-Foot Fred. He got by being in the first Big & Rich hit, the first Big & Rich video, Save a Horse (Ride a Cowboy). He's another Indiana guy and he claims that he was in contact with Kristine because Kristine got a hold of him and said like hey, I'm having troubles with raising a little person, I'm having issues, I'm having challenges. Maybe I can ask you for your advice. And as time went on, Kristine is very fond of sending sexually explicit images of herself to people.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Very fond of that.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She started to try to seduce him kinda.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. So she started sending these sexually explicit images to Freddie Gill. And then she
started saying I think that Natalia is sleeping with one of the neighbors. She's an adult, I think she's sleeping with one of the neighbors. Then she said like I think that Michael is sleeping with Natalia. And then this woman, Kristine, knowing full well that this is a child, tried setting up Natalia with Freddie Gill.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And even started taking pictures, like putting Natalia in full adult makeup to make her look older.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Taking pictures and asking Freddie like so do you think maybe you'd want to spend a night with Natalia? Like there's so much weird shit.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And that's just what we know about.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
This is just what we know about.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because Kristine Barnett obviously has refused to talk about this with anybody. She has not gone on the record because-
ED LARSON
Probably a smart thing.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, for her, yeah. But so this starts, she's trying to ramp this up. Natalia is obviously in a lot of pain. Now coming out, we keep saying we know for a fact that she's a child and how we know for a fact that she's a child is that in season two of this documentary series, they released that they had went and they had taken her to a dentist.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because they were trying to figure out how to age her. So for a while there was a discrepancy about how old she was. Because according to them, the Barnetts, because like anything that comes out of their mouth you really can't trust unfortunately. But they basically said the paperwork was inconclusive and like this one said a different year and this other one said a different year. And so they went-
ED LARSON
She did have like an older face.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Now when you look at it, this is probably a bad comparison. But when we adopted Wendy, when Wendy came, we were told that Wendy was four.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Right? But then you realize when you look back on pictures of Wendy, she obviously was younger because now she's growing in size and her face grew. Right? Natalia is very much not an adult when you look at her when they had her.
MARCUS PARKS
Well it all depends. And that's the thing, that's why the fucking documentary is so shitty.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Is because the documentary purposefully chooses pictures in the first season-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
From later on.
MARCUS PARKS
From later on. And they purposely choose like pictures, videos in which you could be like okay, I could see that.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
The confusion. Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
I can see the confusion there, I can see why somebody would be questioning that. But then there's just one, there's one picture, like speaking to Henry's point, there is one picture in particular in which she is smiling and her mouth is full of baby teeth.
ED LARSON
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
For certain. For certain.
MARCUS PARKS
So obviously, like she's missing a couple of teeth, these obviously are her baby teeth.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And they go to the dentist and the dentist is like yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
This is a kid. I would say she's 9 years old.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes, they believe that she was aged somewhere between 8 and 9, they literally just looked at the fact that she had baby teeth still coming in. And there's the proof. That's it. Technically the-
ED LARSON
A dated X-ray.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
The documentary series could have just ended. That was like the entire big reveal which is we know for a fact that they knew that she was a child and they didn't do anything about it. But then they continued to go ahead. And so this is I feel like also one of the most interesting parts of this case is that we talk all the time about magical thinking and like the power of words and like all this kind of thing of what happens in perception. Think about how magical it is that you could go into a room and a man in a cloak, right, with a big old scary book and a quill can look at you and go like oh you say you're 9? Not anymore! You're 22. And legally you are. And now you are this fucking, you are this age forever.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And they can't seem to undo it. The re-aging was like, that's kind of this weird, crazy sort of like very unique crime in the center of this.
MARCUS PARKS
Well here's what happened with that is the Barnetts, they keep going to doctor after doctor until they finally find one that says like oh yeah, yeah, this is probably an adult.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah because they said that they tried to blame it on the pubic hair.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They said that she had pubic hair too young.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. Well that was the thing, that was the story that they told was that when they adopted her in Florida, they went out for a day at Disney World. The whole family went out for a day at Disney World and they took Natalia back to the hotel with the whole family.
ED LARSON
All Star Sports most likely.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, probably. That's a good one for the kids. Yeah, absolutely.
MARCUS PARKS
They took Natalia and the whole family back to the hotel room. Kristine undresses her to give her a bath, as you would for a six year old kid, and Michael hears a scream from the bathroom.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
(wailing)
MARCUS PARKS
And Kristine says get in here! And as Michael puts it, I went into the room-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I just went into that room.
MARCUS PARKS
I went into the room and I looked out and I saw that she had pubic hair.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
There was for certain pubic hair. This is the motion. It's this. I've been working on my Michael. I've been trying to figure out how to play Michael.
MARCUS PARKS
He's a difficult, he's a very distinctive...
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's so hard without you seeing me because it's all like him smashing his face and him like rolling and writhing and stuff.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And then being like no, no, no, no!
MARCUS PARKS
I tried, I tried!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I tried!
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
He's a coward who was also a bad man.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
No, he's an absolute coward because he claims that in all of this he is a victim too. He claims that he was fully passive and fully submissive and that he was under the spell of Kristine just like everybody else in the family was and he could never break free from Kristine.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Well he closed up his story from the first time he was talking, the first interview he did, he'd said everything.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He said all of the stuff that he was directly involved in and it wasn't til later, probably after season one came in and someone probably sent him a cease and desist from Kristine and he probably had to stop talking.
ED LARSON
Well he kept calling her evil in the second season.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I mean she is!
MARCUS PARKS
Well that's his very dramatic nickname for her. He's like I don't call her Kristine.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Her name is not Kristine.
MARCUS PARKS
I call her evil.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Her name is evil.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And when evil tells you something, evil is gonna get something.
MARCUS PARKS
I discovered an interesting little anecdote about Kristine and Michael. I discovered it on Reddit, on one of the Natalia Grace subreddits where the people are very passionate.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
But there was one person who claimed that they worked for Kristine at her daycare.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Sure.
MARCUS PARKS
Because Kristine actually did run a daycare out of her house for many years.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
And this person claimed that this daycare was also somewhat abusive and it was very bizarre. This person claimed that Kristine's style of childcare is that they would take toddlers, zip them up into like these little sleeping bags, these little cocoons, and put them in high chairs. This person called it baby jail. And basically these kids would just sit there in these little cocoons for hours on end right up until 5 pm when the parents would come to pick them up. Then they would unzip the children, let them out, and then the parents would be none the wiser.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
And what she said about Michael, this person who worked at the daycare, is that Michael would basically go up to his room. He'd kind of have his room and he'd only come out every once in a while to like get some food. He would barely talk to Kristine, anytime he talked to Kristine it would be to complain about something. And then he looked very disheveled all the time and that he would just hide from Kristine basically all day long.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But it makes sense. And again, it tracks. I think that he was abused in this scenario but he has a lot of... He was a part of it entirely.
MARCUS PARKS
God yes.
ED LARSON
For sure.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He was number two.
MARCUS PARKS
God yes.
ED LARSON
He admits that he saw her beat them.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
Three times, he admits.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Multiple times. Multiple times. And he didn't do anything.
ED LARSON
Yeah, yeah. Also did he ever have a job? I kept trying to clock that. Like what was his employment situation?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Fun guy!
ED LARSON
Yeah. I don't think he has ever at any point held down a job.
MARCUS PARKS
He had a job. I can't remember what it was.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Here we go, what did Natalia Grace's family do for a living based on Michael Barnett's career? This is actually interesting.
MARCUS PARKS
I think he was a real estate guy?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Retail jobs.
ED LARSON
Okay.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He was a team leader role to district manager roles for companies such as Circuit City and T- Mobile. He is absolutely a Circuit City manager.
ED LARSON
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He is. Oh wow, I just-
ED LARSON
We know how good they did.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Wow.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That just came all the way back that he is definitely a manager at a retail company. He works as district director of operations for a financial company in Indiana. So I don't know what that is.
ED LARSON
Okay.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He does staffing and stuff. But yes, I could totally see him be a manager. Absolutely.
MARCUS PARKS
Circling back to the re-aging thing, so they find a doctor that is willing to say yes, I believe that this is an adult. And so they go to this judge, a judge named Gerald Zore.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Behold, Zore!
MARCUS PARKS
Judge Zore. And this judge didn't see Natalia, didn't bring Natalia in, he didn't meet anyone, he didn't even meet the Barnetts, they never even stepped in the court. The Barnetts didn't take an oath to tell the truth. The Barnetts just submitted a petition with this doctor's note saying like this is an adult and the judge said okay! And just re-aged her from 8 to 22. And if you wanna ask the question to so many things in this fucking case when you ask like how did this happen? The answer is always Indiana.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
This state almost fucking murdered me.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It is really weird, man.
MARCUS PARKS
As far as the government goes in Indiana, it's fucking god awful.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Well this is just... Obviously there are tons of different people within these governmental systems, people that are better and worse at their jobs. This is just such an example of... I feel like the only way I can really put it is it feels like some kind of negligent laziness.
MARCUS PARKS
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Where no one really looked into this case. This all came about, I don't really know how they got to change somebody's age without their consent unless they got her to sign the form. Maybe there's something in there. I don't know how that fucking works.
ED LARSON
But if you're an 8 year old you can't sign paperwork.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But that's what they did. That's what they did.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They basically got her to admit... Somebody, they just fucked her up.
MARCUS PARKS
It really does seem-
ED LARSON
You could convince a child to say anything.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And now when she's legally an adult, they could do anything they want to her.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. After she's 22.
ED LARSON
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
I mean it really does seem like the judge, like the paperwork came across his desk, he read through it and he went huh, that's weird.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
He just signed it and handed it off. And so all of a sudden with the stroke of a pen, her birth date changed from 2003 to 1989.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And if that's not magic, I don't know what is, like legitimately. Like this idea of now we all have collectively agreed that you're an adult now.
MARCUS PARKS
Perception. I mean yeah, so now the perception is like this person does... Like suddenly this 9 year old could go in and buy a case of beer. Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Fucking cool ass 9 year old. But it's difficult because-
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, she can vote, all this shit.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Like instantly.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So now they don't know what to do with Natalia Grace. So now they got her, they have won in this aspect, this is what Kristine Barnett wanted because they've been trying to get her out, they couldn't figure out a way to do it without them being on the hook. Because Kristine Barnett did not want things to come back to her for getting rid of this child, even though like it would have been entire-
ED LARSON
Magic mom.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It would have been utterly understandable and actually probably more people would have applauded you if you had come out being like this is actually past my abilities, I'm going to admit that, we want to put her in a place where she could be taken care of and watched over with people what they were doing. You would have been a fucking hero.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She decided that she thought that people would then I guess think that she was bad at it.
MARCUS PARKS
Well it's speculated that she was afraid that people would think she was a bad person by saying that I can't take care of it, that she doesn't have what it takes. And yeah, it would be a black mark on her record. It would basically just make her reputation, her Q score, lower.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Lower.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But now that they have re-aged her, they can kind of do whatever they want. So they move her to an apartment. They literally just drop her off at a place in an extremely bad neighborhood in the state of Indiana where it's like you're just basically watching a child who has to kind of figure it out. And the one thing I'll say about Natalia Grace-
ED LARSON
A disabled child.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, disabled.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Disabled child. And Natalia Grace, I'll say something, man. She fucking bowed up.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Oh yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
The fact that she figured out how to make it, like literally how to survive is crazy.
MARCUS PARKS
It is. But the first neighborhood wasn't that bad.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's all bad. It's not good.
ED LARSON
It wasn't beautiful.
MARCUS PARKS
It wasn't beautiful but the first neighborhood wasn't all that bad. It was like one of those apartment complexes where it's a bunch of like single story apartments, maybe like four or five people living there. And so she's 9 years old, she's just dropped into an apartment. And so she just starts going to other people's houses and just knocking on doors saying hey, can I come in?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Can I have food? Can we hang out?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Like I need stuff.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And as you said, Eddie, a kid will do whatever you tell them to do. She's been told over and over and over and over again by Kristine, you're 22, you're 22. And Michael as well.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
He's also been telling her you're 22, you're 22.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
This is how a 22 year old acts. This is what a 22 year old says. This is what you say when you're asked these questions. She coached her.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, she was absolutely coached.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
And so she starts just walking into people's houses.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But it's interesting because now you're legally an adult. So up to this point, she has been kind of accused of doing these kind of like fucked up kid things.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Accused of fucking with the neighbor's kids, accused of fucking with her stepbrothers or accused of attacking people at school. And that's one thing when you're a kid but now you're quote unquote "an adult". So everything that you do now has to be looked at like you're an adult. She was playing with a local kid. People came and saw her rolling around the grass with this other kid. They've been told, all of the people that have met Natalia Grace have been told that that's a 22 year old woman, that it just looks like a little kid. So you watch them, these two kids playing together like in a field.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
What would you do if a strange 22 year old person that looked like a kid that wasn't a kid but was like playing kind of not intimately but literally like tickling and rolling around with another kid that age?
MARCUS PARKS
Well something that would be inappropriate for a 22 year old person to do.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
This is what I'm saying.
ED LARSON
They said she was unbuckling his pants.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because now again, it's coming from the view of oh we're viewing this as a 22 year old doing these things. Where it's like no, it was a fellow 9 year old that was doing stuff.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That was just literally like playing with another child and trying to have some kind of social network.
MARCUS PARKS
Well I mean not only that but the unbuckling of the pants, all this points towards the child being sexually abused. Because she also made-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
If that's even real.
MARCUS PARKS
If that's even real. But I don't know, she made a lot of sexually inappropriate comments to her neighbors, a lot of sexually inappropriate jokes.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
She did spend a brief period in what they called a stress center, which it was a fucking asylum.
ED LARSON
Yeah. The pictures they showed of it, it did not look friendly.
MARCUS PARKS
It looks terrifying.
ED LARSON
it looked like Shutter Island.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, it's bad.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah but it was also said that she was approaching sexual inappropriateness with some of the other patients and then she was taken out of that center because of that. But that's the thing is that that's the behavior, exactly the behavior that abused kids exhibit.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
A lot of abused kids exhibit, they call it precocious sexuality.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And it's almost proof that at some point either before she came to the Barnetts or while she was with the Barnetts, she experienced some sort of sexual abuse at some point in her life. Almost certainly.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
This is frown time. All of this is frowny.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. And it's even frownier for the fucking documentary filmmakers to exploit all of that for six episodes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
I have some questions about the insane asylum that just don't add up for me.
MARCUS PARKS
No.
ED LARSON
As far as the documentary goes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
There was a lot. They left a lot of gaps.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, they left a lot of gaps. They were in and out of that shit in the first season and then don't mention it in the second.
ED LARSON
Yeah. Because like first of all, all the phone calls from the nurses and shit, none of those people left their name. They're just random phone calls. They could have been literally anybody that they're talking to and we have to take their word for it that they're actually talking to the nurses that work there. But I know that no nurse from like a fucking nursing home would even talk like that.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
No.
ED LARSON
It's just like who the fuck are these people?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
It doesn't add up.
MARCUS PARKS
No. It doesn't add up at all. So it may even be that all that was bullshit. Who knows?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Who knows?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's the thing in this story-
MARCUS PARKS
Because you can't even trust the filmmakers in this fucking thing.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Everybody's all over the place and everybody's got a fucking agenda. Natalia Grace is just really just trying to tell her story. But also I think that her memory is kind of jacked up because of all the things that happened to her. I also think that she's been through a fucking lot. I think and it was traumatized deeply as a kid. And now you've got Michael Barnett who is a legitimate, I don't know what you'd call him, like he's-
MARCUS PARKS
A narcissist.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. And I would not let him fucking watch Wendy or Carmy, never mind adult children.
ED LARSON
He should be allowed to drive.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. He fucking creeps me out. And then Kristine Barnett, who's an actual fucking literal monster.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Yeah. She found the perfect patsy which is Michael, I feel like.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Or developed him.
ED LARSON
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Developed him.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. And then abandoned him. Because after she was at the apartment for I think it was a year that she was in-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. They were gone for a while.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, it was quite a long time in this apartment by herself in a fairly nice neighborhood. And she would go across the street to another, to this other family who were like these two nice people that were just like she was a problem because she was around all the time. And they thought that this is like oh, this is a 22 year old person who has no sense of boundaries whatsoever. And that's what most people thought about her. It was like oh this is just a person who has no sense of boundaries.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Not knowing that they're dealing with a 9 year old who's lonely.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. And that's really because everyone thought it was quote unquote "creepy". And this is where the creepy thing comes from.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Which is this idea of like oh she did all this fucked up stuff. Oh She's an evil orphan. And it's like no, she was just fucking not 22.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She was a child and also was fed this stuff that she was an orphan, fed that she was an evil 22 year old, she was told this. It's easy to program a child.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Not just that, I think it's important to remember that she is in constant agonizing pain.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
And who knows like what medication she's on to make her think a certain way.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Oh I don't think she was given any medication.
ED LARSON
You don't think so?
MARCUS PARKS
She wasn't taken care of, like she wasn't taken care of. They did the absolute bare minimum.
ED LARSON
They only gave her one surgery, right?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Of which she needed dozens of them, yes.
ED LARSON
She should have got dozens. Yeah. And then she fucking was sitting there and she couldn't move properly. She couldn't walk. Her feet were facing out.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
And she still is all fucked up obviously.
MARCUS PARKS
She didn't even have the right shoes to walk around.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
She needed a walker and she didn't have that.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She needs specialty shoes. Man, when they showed the steps she had to go up in order to get into the apartment.
MARCUS PARKS
Well that's the second apartment.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes, that was the second apartment.
MARCUS PARKS
The first apartment that she was in, I think after the lease was up, they were like we can't have her around anymore. She's made sexually inappropriate comments and also the incident with the little boy.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
They're like we can't have her around anymore, she can't live here anymore. So what they did is they found another apartment and they found another apartment further away.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Like they took her to the town of Lafayette, which was like an hour's drive from where Kristine and Michael actually lived. And they took her to Lafayette, and this was in Kristine's words, she said it's a white trash town, no one's gonna care.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Like we can just put her somewhere and no one's gonna give a shit about her.
ED LARSON
She was literally left to die.
MARCUS PARKS
She was.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
I've seen shit like this before. You're given no money, you're put in the house in the north with no electricity most of the time.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It is to kill you.
ED LARSON
No phone, they wiped her contact list clean on her phone.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
They put her in a bad neighborhood, on food stamps to survive, a 9 year old. They thought that she was gonna get murdered.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's truly-
ED LARSON
Or starve to death.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Truly fucked.
ED LARSON
Or fall down the stairs.
MARCUS PARKS
I think they were counting on falling down the stairs because even in order to get to the apartment building, it was like kind of a cracker box, a top on top duplex. She had to walk up these huge-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Steep!
MARCUS PARKS
Steep cement stairs.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Just to get to the building. And then she had to go to the second floor.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And how's she gonna carry groceries up there? I think they were counting on her falling down the stairs and dying.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
That's what they were counting on.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And then they moved to Canada. Well Kristine Barnett moved to Canada.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because they found out Michael could not go as well, which seemed to be a part of her plan as well.
MARCUS PARKS
Her plan was to abandon Michael back in... Or the plan was to keep Michael in America, to go away, leave without divorcing him. Eventually they did get divorced.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes, they got divorced, yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. But Kristine and Jacob and the other two kids went to Canada because Jacob had gotten into this special school, a school for geniuses, so on and so forth. And that's the other thing too is that this entire time like Jacob was being forced to participate in the abuse of Natalia.
ED LARSON
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah, he absolutely was.
MARCUS PARKS
I mean because one of the things we didn't really talk about, because long before she was sent to the apartment, it was two years of intense physical abuse on the part of Kristine Barnett, just beating her. And then forcing Jacob to do weird shit. Like she would bring in Jacob who was a young, like not necessarily prepubescent but young teenager I think, would bring him into Natalia's room and say pee on her bed, pee on her bed. She was bad, pee on her bed. And would make him pee on the bed when he was like I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And then there's of course the hot mic moment.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
In the middle of the fucking documentary series, they basically have the kid confess to pushing him down the stairs or Michael kind of says something with him.
MARCUS PARKS
They've just finished an interview and Michael and Jacob, the son-
ED LARSON
This kid is like next to tears during the entire interview too.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
The entire interview. Yeah, yeah.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
He's haunted by this.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Absolutely haunted.
ED LARSON
In his horrible little basement. Fucking... It looks like there's mold on the walls.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Like he is in a horrible situation. It was just like math problems written on white boards everywhere.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
It is like a weird living situation.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, he looks like what's his name from Beautiful Mind down there.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, yeah. But he goes upstairs with Michael and the interview is supposedly over but Jacob still has his microphone on. He's on a hot mic.
ED LARSON
They set his ass up in my opinion.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
From what it looks like to me, they saw The Jinx.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
ED LARSON
And they're like okay, we're gonna keep... I would believe them if they weren't filming him.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
They were still because he was at the top of the stairs with the hot mic, they're like hold, point the camera at the stairs. If the camera wasn't pointed at the stairs and it was just a hot mic situation, I would almost think about maybe giving them a pass.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
But it's not. They knew what they were doing, they knew that both of them aren't bright, Michael and Jacob.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
I mean Jacob's a genius.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Jacob's a genius but not socially.
ED LARSON
But not street smart.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, yeah, he's not street smart.
ED LARSON
He's not street smart at all.
MARCUS PARKS
No.
ED LARSON
So he like realizes it the moment he says it and you see him, he rips it out of his shirt, he's like distraught. I'm sure the kid's fucking horrified.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, I feel so bad for him.
MARCUS PARKS
Well what he said is that, he was like well we said that we weren't gonna talk about the thing. And they're like oh yeah, the stairs thing, the pushing down the stairs? Like yeah, I told them I wasn't gonna talk about that. And he's like because I don't want to get a subpoena or anything. Well you were a minor at the time.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And then Jacob goes like oh no, my mic's on, oh god, oh no.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Because what I mean you can extrapolate from that is that Kristine at one point forced Jacob to push Natalia down the stairs.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And there's a lot of evidence of Kristine Barnett doing this.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She forced Natalia to go on camera often and confess to crimes, quote unquote "things that she's done". The poisoning, putting the floor cleaner in the coffee.
MARCUS PARKS
Lysol in the coffee.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She made her say that she did it. She did a lot of stuff. She put her on camera because Kristine Barnett is evil.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And she did the thing where she tried to set all this up, because it's wild. It's like truly, it's deception with a club and she was doing it on purpose.
ED LARSON
She was interrogating her own adopted child seems like hourly.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
It was insane.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. I mean she would get her on camera and say like admit that you have periods, admit that you have periods. Tell me that you have periods. And she'd eventually go 'I have periods'. Like it's fucking horrifying to watch.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, it's horrifying.
MARCUS PARKS
But yeah, that's what they would say is that she would was menstruating and she had pubic hair and that's why that they knew that she was an adult when the whole time they had every knowledge, multiple doctors and dentists proved that she was a child.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
So they move her out to this apartment that's essentially a death trap for someone like her. And after, it seems like the timelines a little fuzzy here, but it seems like after a couple of weeks this other family who lives in the neighborhood, the Mans-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Notice her and immediately talk to her and immediately say like oh, this is a kid. Because the Mans adopt a lot of kids.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
They have five kids of their own.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I believe they're part of the quiverfull movement.
MARCUS PARKS
Are they?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I believe they are part of it.
ED LARSON
What does that mean?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Well just the idea of they are a Christian group that, man, they love to cum.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's about having as many children as humanly possible.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, it's having arrows in the, filling your quiver with arrows,
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Creating your own society.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, creating your own society. It's like one of those like subtly violent things where it's saying like we need a Christian army, so breed your own army and have as many children as you possibly can.
ED LARSON
Gotcha.
MARCUS PARKS
And so the Mans-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Satan should try it.
ED LARSON
He's got enough to deal with.
MARCUS PARKS
So their name is Cynthia and Antwon Mans. They're an interesting couple. And Cynthia does seem like a genuinely caring person.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She does.
MARCUS PARKS
She does seem like a genuine person, that she truly loves kids, truly cares about kids.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Antwon I'm not quite so sure about.
ED LARSON
I don't like him.
MARCUS PARKS
I don't like him either. But he's a pastor of some kind. I don't know what denomination, I feel like he made up his own denomination.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He sounds, it's interesting because he's present for all of these interviews inside of the documentary series.
MARCUS PARKS
In the second season he's present for all the interviews.
ED LARSON
Well not the last one.
MARCUS PARKS
Not the very last one, exactly, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. Probably because Michael wouldn't show up with him.
ED LARSON
I wouldn't show up, motherfucker. He says one curse word and he starts screaming about god while they're trying to interview him?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I mean that whole thing was... It all feels very reality television once it got to that part.
ED LARSON
It's very reality TV.
MARCUS PARKS
The second season, you can tell that they are turning the Natalia Grace story into a reality TV show. U
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. And that's where you're like, that's where I was trying to get in my world where I'm like so this is HBO? This is what HBO-
MARCUS PARKS
No.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
No but it's not, it's ID.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But it's on the HBO fucking app.
MARCUS PARKS
No, it's on Max. Max is not HBO, my friend.
ED LARSON
Discovery has ruined HBO, we don't need to get into that now.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Look at this fucking shit where it's like... Because I forget. But that really is like, talk about like, that's a media thing.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Where you start to watch this stuff and I was like I can't fucking believe that HBO would make something like this. And then I have to remember they're not making something like this.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
ID is making this.
MARCUS PARKS
Yes.
ED LARSON
I was thrown off by the bleeps.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
ED LARSON
I was like I thought I was watching HBO!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanna see that pubic hair!
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
I didn't realize that it was ID until I think like the second season.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Like it wasn't until, like the whole time I'm thinking it's HBO which is kind of fucked up because it lends the whole thing such an air of legitimacy.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Gravity. Yeah.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. So the Mans like take Natalia in, they're like okay, you're getting out of that fucking apartment, we take you in. And they say that she's lived with them for like 10 years. They say she's a loving, happy person.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
No problems. They adopt a lot of kids, she's always very good with all the other kids. I mean yeah, they say that yeah, she has her problems.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
But she was an abused child, a neglected child.
ED LARSON
Yeah, of course she fucking problems.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, she's all jacked up.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, yeah. She can't really read, she can't really write. Or she couldn't at the time when they fucking saved her from the streets.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, she had almost no formal education.
MARCUS PARKS
None whatsoever.
ED LARSON
But she speaks well.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah because again, she had to.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She had to.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, she had to figure it out. This isn't necessarily a spoiler but at the end of season two, and this is just more of the exploitative bullshit-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
At the end of season two, they end season two with the Mans have finally adopted Natalia.
ED LARSON
Even though she's an adult.
MARCUS PARKS
Even though she's an adult, which you can do.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
You can adopt adults. But they adopt Natalia and they make it out to this very beautiful scene, you think this is how it's gonna end. And then there's the twist at the very end.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. There's a little clip of the Mans talking about how they're done with Natalia Grace. What they say, she's tweaked.
MARCUS PARKS
I've got the exact quote here is the adoption ends and then you hear the pow.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Just being like two weeks, six months.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. And then it says two weeks after filming ended, producers received a call from the Mans. And the call, they played the call. It was Antwon said, "Something ain't right with Natalia, this girl is tweaking. I feel like she's the enemy in the house. And she said to us we have held her hostage, made us look like we're the enemy. She's done other things too but this was a new low. Natalia does not have emotions for nothing but herself. We're done. We're done with her."
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
My feeling is the nature of the call is fairly staged.
MARCUS PARKS
Very performative.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's very performative. And I think we are watching and obviously into it a little bit just being in our interest watching it-
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And talking. This is creating a third season of a reality television show. I have no idea how far Natalia Grace is involved with this, we know that she's profiting off the show as she should, right.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Does she make money?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, they're paying her money.
ED LARSON
Michael? Does he make money?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I imagine they're not paying him anything. Or he might have a day rate.
MARCUS PARKS
I bet they pay him.
ED LARSON
They have to pay him, right?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, I bet they pay him.
ED LARSON
I kept trying to find, I kept looking up like are these people getting paid? I couldn't find shit.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I know that she's getting paid because now I guess the Mans, a part of what that was referring to, the statement, is about they felt that the money from the show wasn't split with them. Whatever, I don't know.
MARCUS PARKS
Where did you find that out?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Like another forum. Again, another just reading on reading.
MARCUS PARKS
Okay. So yeah, that's a forum, that's probably speculation.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes, it's all speculation.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
That's the other thing, like every article I found was like by The Sun or the Daily Mail and it's like none of this is credible.
MARCUS PARKS
No.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Well this is what's hard is that like this is why a lot of times we cover stories that have been through like nine other vetting processes so that when we get to it, we add the dubious. You know what I mean? We add the dubious, we add all the stuff.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Where stuff like this is so hard because number one, it's very emotional.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's extremely emotional. People get tied up. We talk about the passion behind this. And two, it's like we don't really know what happened at the very center of the story. The things that we do know is the fact that she was a little girl when she was adopted and should have been treated as such.
ED LARSON
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That is like the heart of this entire story is that none of this would have happened if she was just treated like a child instead of having somebody do truly one of the... You could have left her at a fire station and it would have been less fucking devious than what Kristine Barnett did.
ED LARSON
Yeah. And even if Natalia was a little evil or whatever as like an 8 year old, it's an 8 year old.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's an 8 year old!
ED LARSON
8 year olds do fucking evil shit sometimes. And then they grow up and they wish they never did it.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She came and had to survive a Ukrainian orphanage where they scared them to sleep every night.
ED LARSON
She might have had a mean streak.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
She might be upset. She could barely walk, she's in constant pain. She is in surgery after surgery. Her hands don't work.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That was the other thing too. You know what showed me? Natalie fucking clued me, we were watching it last night and like they said all this stuff about her hurting people.
MARCUS PARKS
And like holding knives.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Holding knives, all this kind of stuff.
MARCUS PARKS
And there was the whole story of like her trying to pull Kristine into an electric fence.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
ED LARSON
That was the most ridiculous, stupid fucking part of the goddamn show!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So stupid. Pushing the kids in. And then cuts to innocuous but interesting Michael, this fucking guy, what a piece of work. He tries to go into a Lebron James like handshake chain with Natalia.
ED LARSON
Oh my god.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Do you remember this?
ED LARSON
Where he tries to like show her the snap and stuff?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
He's just like no, no, you have to do it like this. And he goes like slap, you gotta click, you snap your fingers and shit. She can't even fucking do it.
MARCUS PARKS
No.
ED LARSON
Of course not.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And you're like all right, she doesn't have the hand strength to touch his hands.
MARCUS PARKS
Well she says it herself.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I know. But partially you're like there's that thing that the beginning of the documentary series put the little seed in, being like oh is she maybe, is she kind of evil even if she... But then you're like no, she literally couldn't do it. I just watched her not be able to do it. She definitely can't do anything of physical force using her hands.
MARCUS PARKS
You watched her do that as a 22 year old.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
And they're saying that all of this happened when she was 9.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
And they talk about her showing up into their room with a knife. You know how you fix that? A fucking baby gate.
ED LARSON
Yeah, child locks!
MARCUS PARKS
She was like 2 ft tall. Even at that point, like 1.5, 2 ft tall. And she says that herself. She's like look at me. Why are you afraid of me?
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Like what the fuck?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They also said that they did diagnose her with reactive attachment disorder which is like this concept of you come from a place of no trust, you're an orphan. It happens a lot with orphans. According to this reactive detachment disorder develops because a child's basic needs for comfort and affection and nurturing weren't meant. And like what that means is that like they sometimes act in fucked up ways and they do fucked up things.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And one of those where it's like I actually think is possible in a way of like they kind of floated she just kind of would hide knives places out of a feeling of not being safe.
MARCUS PARKS
Maybe.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's what I believe, that a feeling of not being safe.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You're doing something, you're hiding stuff just for the sake of protecting yourself.
MARCUS PARKS
Well how the hell-
ED LARSON
Or the mom hid them just so the dad would find him and she would be able to manipulate him.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Absolutely.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They also talk about how adopted kids sometimes hide food, that kind of thing.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. Well I mean as the neglect goes and how badly that can really affect somebody, Ed, I know I've talked to Henry about this but have you ever heard about the wire monkey story?
ED LARSON
No.
MARCUS PARKS
There was a study that was done many years ago when they were still very cruel to animals, where they took a baby monkey, there were a few baby monkeys and they had two mama monkeys that they basically crafted. One mama monkey was very soft, made from like a very plushy substance. But the monkey would not get food if they went to soft monkey. The other mama monkey was made of wire.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. And cold.
MARCUS PARKS
It was cold. But that monkey, you get food if you were the baby monkey and you went to the wire monkey. Inevitably, every time, invariably the monkey would go for the soft monkey.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. The comfort.
MARCUS PARKS
Because the comfort to them, to the baby monkey, was more important than the food.
ED LARSON
Wow.
MARCUS PARKS
And so they were able to kind of extrapolate from that that comfort, as far as primates go, like that is essential to our development.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Our developmental process.
ED LARSON
That is nurture over nature.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You must have, well the idea of-
MARCUS PARKS
You must have comfort, you must be loved, you must be held.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Babies must be held.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Babies must be held.
ED LARSON
Skin to skin.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It has to happen.
ED LARSON
Yes.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because what it does is it destroys, if you don't have it, it destroys an essential social adaptive nature. It's just how it is. It fucks you up.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And so they said right here it is a common problem for kids that were, this is from Romanian orphanages but it said it was a common problem for kids that were from a lot of Eastern European places. I don't know why. Why are they bad to orphans? Is there just a thing that they just are not into it? I feel like there's gotta be, there's gotta be at least one good Ukrainian orphanage, right?
MARCUS PARKS
I guess so.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
But there's gotta be good ones. There's gotta be one good Russian orphanage, right? Maybe.
ED LARSON
The job don't pay shit, I'll tell you that right now. So you're kind of getting who you get. And then it's like the really good people, yeah, they run a really good orphanage. But there's still a lot of extra kids.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Especially in places that are like war torn and going through constant civil war like Ukraine.
MARCUS PARKS
Well I mean when I was in a high school I participated in CX debate and what's funny is that I can't remember the subject at all. But I remember one of the things that we argued for was like Russian adoption. And we had this whole, we went through this whole thing, this was like 1999.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
This is real sad, I'm reading about Russian orphanages right now and it ain't... Oh man. Muppet Babies shouldn't be there, man. This is not good.
MARCUS PARKS
But our whole point was that Russian orphanages are absolutely fucking awful. Eastern European, like former Soviet bloc orphanages are absolutely just, I mean places of torture and despair.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Which that's where Natalia Grace was coming from. But the thing is about all this is that it all begs the question why do we know about this? Like why do we know that all this happened? And that's because in September of 2019, Michael and Kristine were charged with multiple counts of neglecting a dependent for leaving Natalia in the apartment. Someone noticed. And so they were charged with eight crimes, like neglect of a dependent, neglect of a dependent causing bodily injury. But at the end of the day, the judge, again, the judge in this case did not allow the re-aging to be brought into evidence. The prosecution was not allowed in any way whatsoever to talk about the fact that this was a 9 year old that they dropped off, they just talked about this. So the entire trial, Michael's trial, Michael was first, Kristine was second, they tried them separately. The entire trial, the prosecution had to go only on the fact that this was a 22 year old. And I think the jury took an hour, maybe two to come back with a verdict of not guilty for Michael just based on like well it's a 22 year old, what are you gonna do?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
What are you gonna do about it?
ED LARSON
Yeah, exactly. And these fucking judges stick up for each other. That's what I think, that's what I take from this. It's like oh we don't want to be shown as like weak minded, make mistakes. And so they're gonna fucking stick up for this other judge.
MARCUS PARKS
That's a good point.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I think that's a great point. I think that is a massive issue. I think that they're like this precedent has been set and if we undo this, how many other people are gonna come to undo this? Because it's understanding that we would have to do like, how do you put it? That means that someone's like truly fucking with I guess the trust the court puts on you to not lie to us about re-aging your child. But also how many people... I'm gonna look this up. How many people a year are re-aged? Like how often does that happen?
MARCUS PARKS
It doesn't seem like it's... I mean I think it happens in adoption cases with Eastern European kids because oftentimes the age is wrong.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
But usually it's like a year, two years, three years.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
It's not fucking 12.
ED LARSON
Yeah. And to go back on the judge thing, not to get too political or whatever. But we know that if it's a state case, then either Pence probably appointed this judge because it's Indiana.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Interesting.
ED LARSON
And if it's a federal case, Trump probably appointed this judge. 2019.
MARCUS PARKS
Well I think these are probably elected judges.
ED LARSON
You think so?
MARCUS PARKS
Actually I don't exactly know how Indiana works.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Because a lot of judges are elected and I don't know if you know this but I know at least in Texas you don't have to have a law degree to be elected to judge.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Whoa! I'm a judge now!
MARCUS PARKS
Like county judges, shit like that.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
You don't have to have a law degree. You just have to say like hey, I wanna be a judge. And everyone goes like yeah, I think he'd be pretty good at that.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, I like him.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, I like him.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
And so all of a sudden you've got this guy in there that has very little knowledge of the law but he's there and he's making decisions that affect people's lives. But I think what it probably has more to do is just this judge doesn't want to fuck with another judge. That's it. Like he saw the judge and was like I can't really... Maybe he probably fucking knew the guy.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
He doesn't want to fuck with his job, doesn't wanna fuck with the guy. And just fucking lets it go and doesn't allow the re-aging to be entered. So Michael gets off scot free. And then after Michael gets off, the prosecution looked at Kristine's case and decided we can't win this shit, it's a waste of time.
ED LARSON
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
And the prosecutors aren't gonna try a case unless they are 99% sure that they're gonna win, they're not gonna go forward with it.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. Because to lose something like that would be a massive public loss.
MARCUS PARKS
Two in a row?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, to lose two in a row and to also spend the time, spend money, all of that to try this person. And so they just dismissed the charges against Kristine a little less than a year ago in March of 2023.
ED LARSON
And so she can't be tried again now, right?
MARCUS PARKS
No, she can be I think.
ED LARSON
Civilly probably.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I think they're gonna go for the civil war because the statute of limitations for neglect, I believe, of a disabled person had passed. That was one of the other reasons why they couldn't get Michael on those charges.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. But I think, I know if you are tried for a crime and found not guilty you can't be tried again. But if charges are dismissed against you, I think you can be. I think the charges can be brought back like if there's new evidence.
ED LARSON
Okay.
MARCUS PARKS
I'm pretty sure.
ED LARSON
I hope so.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, I hope so. But they're not. They're just not gonna go for it, they're not gonna go after it. I think as far as the state of Indiana is concerned, this case is behind them. I don't think they fucking care.
ED LARSON
But there's so much footage of her just abusing this child, we saw it in the documentary.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. But that's the thing, there's only footage of her telling, there's footage of her emotionally abusing her but there's no-
ED LARSON
Physically abusing. The wall thing is insane.
MARCUS PARKS
But there's no video evidence of that.
ED LARSON
And that it lasted as long as they said it.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, you don't know. And it could also be argued that's a punishment that a parent is allowed to... I mean hell, there's a lot of people that will defend beating your kids, like still like we should bring spankings back. There's plenty of, especially like Indiana, like I know all our people in Indiana, I love you.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We got good people in Indiana.
MARCUS PARKS
We got really good people in Indiana. But goddamn, that state's awful.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's just got a lot of problems. They just need a lot of help.
MARCUS PARKS
It's got a lot of problems.
ED LARSON
I personally have people going through some crazy problems with the adoption process in Indiana.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
That's as far as I could talk about that. But like I know firsthand there is some crazy problems with the adoption processes in Indiana.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It is very interesting. I'm also looking more into re-aging. But like I guess it does happen fairly often in international adoptions.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Because they believe if we shave a couple of years off a child, that makes them more attractive.
ED LARSON
Albert Pujols.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Who?
ED LARSON
Albert Pujols, the great home run hitter. He came from the Dominican Republic and he came in and he was like I'm 16, I'm 18.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, of course!
ED LARSON
But he was a clearly 20 something.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That's what Larry Fishburne did to get in Apocalypse Now.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
And Mila Kunis.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yep.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, exactly.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So sometimes re-aging is good. That's what we've learned.
MARCUS PARKS
But where we are with this case now is like I don't believe that Michael or Kristine, well I mean Kristine, her reputation is fucking ruined.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, that's over.
MARCUS PARKS
Her life is over.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That shit's over.
MARCUS PARKS
She is forever Kristine Barnett, the woman who tortured and re-ages a little person for years.
ED LARSON
And never gave fucking Jacob a dollar for the book!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Nothing.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. That sucks too. Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That poor kid. I feel so bad for him too.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, I feel bad. I mean he seems to be like the only genuine dude in this whole thing, like he seems like he's really trying hard to be a good person.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And I just hope Natalia can find some peace. I hope that she gets, I mean I hope she gets paid. There's gonna be a season three of this show.
MARCUS PARKS
Obviously.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
And so we're gonna end up watching that at some point. And you might notice, so this was a Relaxed Fit.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So this was a lighter episode. We're talking about lots stuff kind of. But I want you to know we got two absolutely thick ass series coming.
MARCUS PARKS
Huge series coming up.
ED LARSON
Oh yeah?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
Can you give any hints?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Well one is we got true crime.
ED LARSON
Okay.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Big old true crime story. And then we are doing a really fun trip into stuff that this is a part of your education.
ED LARSON
Thank you.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Eddie. We're going to teach you about what's really going on.
ED LARSON
Ugh, more alien shit?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
No, it is not more alien stuff. It's the truth.
MARCUS PARKS
No, there's some alien stuff but it's what's really going on under the surface.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, buddy. What goes on?
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Who's making the decisions that affect us all? And I'll say sometimes there are people that need to sleep on a rock with a sun lamp.
ED LARSON
Oh okay, okay. Now you're speaking my language.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes. Very big, very big series. But yeah, so we're doing a run up to some really big stuff before we do our big histories. We got two big series, then we got a big history series this summer that we're gonna do that I'm very excited for.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. And the true crime series, what I'll say is that it is a modern story of the last 10 years that has roots in the past, or I would say the motivation of the perpetrator has his motivations far in the past.
ED LARSON
Okay.
MARCUS PARKS
Perhaps a war between two religions.
ED LARSON
Ooh! I hate religion.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah. And you're gonna like this. You're gonna like this.
ED LARSON
Oh the nones are number one now by the way, did you hear that?
MARCUS PARKS
The nuns are number one?
ED LARSON
Yeah, the number one religion in America is none.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Oh yeah. No, zero. Yeah. Fuck yeah, dog!
ED LARSON
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Oh none!
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, we did it. No religion!
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
I thought you meant like-
ED LARSON
Not nun as in N-U-N.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, N-O-N-E.
ED LARSON
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
I thought you meant like nuns.
ED LARSON
No, no, no. They're out.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, they're out there.
ED LARSON
They're way out.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They're out there.
ED LARSON
You ever seen a young nun? My whole life, I've never seen one young nun.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I've never seen a young nun.
MARCUS PARKS
No, I never have either.
ED LARSON
Yeah, I think that we are going to see the end of nunnery in our lives.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's very possible.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah. We'll still have priests for a while but yeah, we'll definitely see the end of nuns.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
ED LARSON
Fuckers, man. Let the nuns be priests. That's the whole problem.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You know, man, you know what? That should keep them out.
MARCUS PARKS
No, just let them fuck. Just let everyone fuck.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Let everybody fuck.
MARCUS PARKS
That's the problem. That's the big problem.
ED LARSON
That would help out a lot.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, let the nuns be priests but first let them fuck.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, can't everyone... Let them scissor. Let priests suck dick.
ED LARSON
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You know how many problems would be fixed if priests could just suck dick?
ED LARSON
They do probably.
MARCUS PARKS
Legal dick. Legal dick.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah.
ED LARSON
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You don't think that the virgin Mary didn't suck dick?
ED LARSON
Yeah, how do you think she got the name?
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, buddy. Yeah. Because she kept the holes empty.
ED LARSON
I don't know-
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
They never said anything about virgin teeth.
ED LARSON
I was in the house and the guy, the angel came in the window and now I've got a baby.
MARCUS PARKS
What was his name? Gabe?
ED LARSON
Yeah.
MARCUS PARKS
Gabe.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
ED LARSON
You hungry? Let's make some food.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
That guy shoots crazy ropes. What a sad episode. So next week we got one that we're doing a last little special and then once we're back. So two weeks from now we're gonna be having a big, big, big series. So you'll see.
ED LARSON
All right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
All right, fuckers.
MARCUS PARKS
Very big indeed. But yeah, don't forget to check out all our shows, all of our live streams at twitch.tv/lpntv. All you out there who are Patreon subscribers, we got some really cool shit coming up. We're gonna be adding some stuff to our Patreon here.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
Very soon, here within the next month. So if you're not a Patreon subscriber right now, you can go to patreon.com/lastpodcastontheleft and check out to see what all you get for becoming a Patreon subscriber. And also know that there's gonna be some extra shit in the future, especially for those of you who enjoy watching Last Stream on the Left.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
We have a lot of stuff coming down the pipe. We got a lot of changes and we've been kind of working behind the scenes a little bit. But you're gonna be so, I think the word is overwhelmed, with content very soon.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
You're gonna cry yourself to sleep.
ED LARSON
Yeah. And if you want to watch us do the podcast, you can check that out on Patreon as well.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, it's in there.
MARCUS PARKS
Last Stream on the Left or go to our YouTube page. Last Stream on the Left is posted two days after it airs on Patreon. So you can go check it out early on Patreon and watch it live and interact with us as it happens every Tuesday at 6 pm PST.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yep.
MARCUS PARKS
Or you can watch it for free on YouTube two days later.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
So why don't you just go ahead and check yourself out of that shit? All right? Hail Satan.
MARCUS PARKS
Hail Gein.
ED LARSON
Hail Jacob.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
ED LARSON
I like Jacob.
MARCUS PARKS
I like Jacob a lot.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I like Natalia. I feel like also-
ED LARSON
Natalia's cool but it's a little difficult.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
It's hard.
ED LARSON
Jacob is a pure soul. I feel so much for Jacob.
MARCUS PARKS
I really do, I feel a lot for Jacob. But yeah, yeah. And I also feel for Natalia too.
ED LARSON
Yeah. She is an abused child, there's no question about that.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah, yeah. She's doing her best. That's what I'll say about Natalia, shes doing her best and good on her for doing the best she can with the horrible fucking hand that she was dealt in life. And Jacob too.
ED LARSON
Yes.
MARCUS PARKS
But everyone else... I don't know.
ED LARSON
I got no good feelings for anyone else. I don't know nothing about the other kids.
MARCUS PARKS
Yeah.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Yeah, they purposely stayed out of it as they should have.
MARCUS PARKS
Except for Cynthia Mans, I got a good feeling for Cynthia Mans.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
I like Cynthia Mans.
MARCUS PARKS
I think Cynthia Mans is a genuinely good person who truly cares about kids. Antwon Mans, I don't know about that guy.
ED LARSON
Yeah, he's manipulative.
MARCUS PARKS
I don't know about that guy at all.
ED LARSON
Yeah, I don't know about him.
MARCUS PARKS
All right.
HENRY ZEBROWSKI
Bye!
ED LARSON
Bye everybody.
MARCUS PARKS
Bye!